Why Getting Everything Still Felt Like Nothing| Chase Finlay

Episode 112 · May 7, 2026 · 1h 40m · with Chase Finlay

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About this episode

He was on the cover of Vogue. Twice. The youngest principal dancer at New York City Ballet. Performing at the White House. Called the Golden Boy by The New York Times. Chase Finlay has never spoken openly about any of this. Until now. In this raw, deeply honest conversation, Chase pulls back the curtain on what it really took to reach the top of the ballet world — the 6-day-a-week grind starting at age 8, moving alone to Manhattan at 17, and the relentless pressure to perform no matter what was happening inside. But this episode goes far beyond dance. Chase opens up about the addiction that quietly consumed his career, the oversexualization and exploitation he experienced as a teenager inside one of the world's most prestigious companies, the scandal that ended his time at New York City Ballet, and the moment he stood in a bathroom , in a detox room, and finally asked — how the hell did I get here? What's on the other side of that moment is even more powerful. Sixth Summit: Join the waitlist at ⁠sixthsummit.io/hackathon⁠ and use the code FYOG Lodgify: Offering 20% off any of there yearly or bi-yearly plans until the end of July, using the code FYOG20 ⁠here⁠ #KassidyWarren https://www.instagram.com/kassidy.warren https://www.linkedin.com/in/kassidywarren #ChaseFinlay https://www.instagram.com/chasefinlay/ Watch #ForYourOwnGood on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KassidyWarren

Key moments

0:00:00 “you tried to find that through becoming the best 100%.”
0:03:22 “It it took it took being absolutely fearless and and almost to the point of unaware...”
0:11:51 “I was just I was never never fully satisfied wal.”
0:13:34 “You've got the system, you've got the structure, everything behind you, right?”
0:20:23 “you tried to find that through becoming the best.”
0:31:21 “of two things for people.”
0:37:15 “It was the worst experience of my life every single time.”
0:47:06 “spoiler alert, dancers don't love that, right?”

Read the full transcript

Auto-generated from the episode captions; may contain small errors.

0:00:00You've been on the cover of Vogue. You

0:00:01were the youngest principal dancer at

0:00:04New York City Ballet.

0:00:05>> It took being absolutely fearless,

0:00:07almost to the point of unaware of how

0:00:09big the stakes [music] really were.

0:00:10>> You were labeled the golden boy. My

0:00:12stomach just dropped. I was like, "Oh my

0:00:15god, now I have a role to [music] play

0:00:17everywhere. If I get to principal

0:00:18dancer, then everybody's going to

0:00:20applaud for me. They love me and

0:00:21everything's good." And then you get

0:00:23there and you're like, "Where [music]

0:00:24the [ __ ] is the thing that I was gunning

0:00:26for?" I was looking for acceptance,

0:00:28community, closeness. [music]

0:00:29>> And you tried to find that through

0:00:31becoming the best

0:00:32>> 100%.

0:00:33>> And you did.

0:00:33>> And I did. [music] And I never found it.

0:00:35The lines got really blurred as to what

0:00:38was performance and what was not. I

0:00:40would look at myself in the mirror. I

0:00:41was like, I don't know that person. It

0:00:43had gotten to the place donors asking

0:00:46for sexual [music] interactions. You're

0:00:48not allowed to say no. She looked me

0:00:50dead in the eyes and put her finger in

0:00:52my chest and said, "I can't trust you."

0:00:55Do you remember sending the photos?

0:00:57>> Chase Finlay. [music]

0:00:58>> Chase Finlay.

0:00:58>> She claims a dancer she dated shared

0:01:00nude photos and sexually explicit videos

0:01:03of her.

0:01:03>> I had zero thought or consideration for

0:01:07another person's feelings. I went to

0:01:09open my door and I saw an envelope with

0:01:12legal documents waiting for me.

0:01:14Something inside of me just cracked

0:01:16open. Every dancer has a final dance.

0:01:19You didn't get yours.

0:01:21>> I did not.

0:01:22>> Chase Finley.

0:01:23>> Yes, sir. You've been on the cover of

0:01:25Vogue twice. You were the youngest

0:01:29principal dancer at New York City

0:01:30Ballet, living in New York at 17 years

0:01:32old. One of the highest achievements any

0:01:35dancer in the world could achieve, went

0:01:38through a whole scandal, which we'll get

0:01:40into, are finally deciding to talk about

0:01:42all of it, and working on helping men go

0:01:45through their transformations and their

0:01:47change. So, I'm really excited to talk

0:01:49to you uh today, and I thank you so much

0:01:51for coming on.

0:01:51>> I'm excited to be here. First, my

0:01:53audience probably does not know anything

0:01:56about ballet, right? And they're like,

0:01:57"Cassidy, why are you talking to a

0:01:58dancer?" Right? And so, help me

0:02:00understand and my audience understand

0:02:02who you were and what it meant to become

0:02:06New York City's principal dancer at the

0:02:09time.

0:02:09>> Yeah. It's it's funny that you say that

0:02:11your audience doesn't doesn't know much

0:02:14about ballet cuz most of the world

0:02:16doesn't. Um, a lot of the world sees

0:02:19kind of the exterior of of what

0:02:21everybody sees is the the bright lights

0:02:23and the pretty costumes and and women up

0:02:26on their toes and flexible athletic

0:02:28movement. [snorts] Um, but rarely do

0:02:30people get the full picture of what

0:02:32ballet really is and what it

0:02:34encompasses. And so what it took from

0:02:39me, who I was back then, um, [snorts]

0:02:43you know, I was

0:02:45kind of this balance between, uh,

0:02:48go-getter, extrovert, do whatever it

0:02:51takes, but also at the same time a lot

0:02:54of introversion, a lot of um, creativity

0:02:58in my own silence, in my own quiet

0:03:02space. And I feel like the combination

0:03:04of what those two things allowed me to

0:03:06be was not only to rise to any occasion

0:03:09that was necessary for me, but also at

0:03:11the same time to really kind of in a way

0:03:15retreat into my own space and get really

0:03:20creative and really explorative with

0:03:22what my roles were going to be, what my

0:03:26um what my own version of expression

0:03:29within each role [snorts] was going to

0:03:31be. And um but I mean to put it short,

0:03:35it just it just took

0:03:37being delusional. It it took it took

0:03:40being absolutely fearless and and almost

0:03:43to the point of unaware of how big the

0:03:45stakes really were when I was when I was

0:03:49in it.

0:03:49>> Did it feel normal for you to to get

0:03:52there? Like was it always kind of

0:03:53inevitable?

0:03:54>> Yes and no. you know, I mean, I think um

0:03:57so as I was coming up through ballet

0:04:01school, so this is kind of an important

0:04:04distinction, too, is ballet school is

0:04:06not academic school. So, I was going to

0:04:10academic school from, you know, 7:30

0:04:13a.m. until 12:30 p.m. and then driving

0:04:16into New York City in order to be to

0:04:19class by 2:00 in the afternoon, changing

0:04:21in the car, doing my homework in the

0:04:23car, eating in the car. Um, and then I

0:04:27would be there every single six day,

0:04:30really six days a week from

0:04:332:30 in the afternoon until about 10:00

0:04:35at night. and I would commute back to

0:04:38Connecticut from New York and rinse and

0:04:41repeat, do it, do it all over again.

0:04:43[snorts]

0:04:44Um, so yeah, what it took is just a lot

0:04:46of a lot of dedication to the craft. Um

0:04:51but in terms of inevitability,

0:04:54I think from day one, you know, it's

0:04:57interesting any um any male dancer, any

0:05:01boy that decides like they have an

0:05:02interest in ballet because there's so

0:05:05few of us. Uh

0:05:08teachers themselves, they're just like,

0:05:10"Cool. They're hungry for it. Like, come

0:05:11on in. We need to get some diversity in

0:05:13here." But as I was going through ballet

0:05:15school, I would there are childhood

0:05:18roles at the American Ballet Theater,

0:05:20which is the classical ballet company in

0:05:24New York City, kind of partnered to New

0:05:25York City Ballet.

0:05:27And at the age of 8, 9, 10, 11 years

0:05:31old, I was going on the the Metropolitan

0:05:34Opera stage

0:05:37doing, you know, I mean, I'm I'm not

0:05:38doing full ballet parts yet, but I'm

0:05:40running around acting, doing childhood

0:05:43roles with some of the most prestigious

0:05:47ballet dancers in the entire world. So,

0:05:50I feel like maybe desensitized is not

0:05:53the right word, but um it just it

0:05:56normalized it for me. You're on stage in

0:05:58front of thousands of people, bright

0:06:00lights shining on you with the best

0:06:02caliber in the world right next to you

0:06:05and it kind of just felt like I was

0:06:07there with with these cool adults who

0:06:09were kind of my friends. And um I feel

0:06:12like by the time the roles reversed and

0:06:15I was in that position, it kind of it it

0:06:18just felt like a normal working part of

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0:07:27weight list. All right, back to the

0:07:29interview. What people don't see behind

0:07:31the stage is, you know, you just see

0:07:34somebody enter from the wings and there,

0:07:36you know, this extravagant, beautiful

0:07:39creature that's soaring through the air,

0:07:43but behind, you know, you hear, we

0:07:46usually count the music in fours, 8,

0:07:4916s.

0:07:50And, you know, you kind of you start to

0:07:53count about 32 counts before you're

0:07:56going out on. And in that moment, it's

0:08:00there's an entire orchestra. There might

0:08:02be applause. There's people running

0:08:03around backstage. There's people on

0:08:05stage, heavy breathing, and everything

0:08:07just goes still

0:08:08>> in that moment. And it's just kind of

0:08:11like you and yourself and the universe,

0:08:15like everything goes quiet around you.

0:08:17And it's just you're just kind of like

0:08:19dropping into

0:08:22that that perfection, that that that

0:08:24that performance. Do you think that's in

0:08:27all of the great athletes and

0:08:29performers?

0:08:30>> Yeah. I mean, I hear it a lot with with

0:08:32runners and and Yeah.

0:08:34>> Yeah. Yeah. There's a there's a genetic

0:08:37I I got my genes tested and I have uh

0:08:40the athlete gene. There's like a

0:08:42specific gene that is correlated to

0:08:43being like a superior athlete or

0:08:45whatever, right? So, I always kind of

0:08:46joke about it, but I I'm curious if you

0:08:48have it, too, because there's this like

0:08:49flow state in competition. even when I'm

0:08:52doing just a a podcast interview, I

0:08:56could get into flow state and like tap

0:08:57into that and and I wonder about that

0:08:59for high performers, high achievers. And

0:09:02then also like what are you when you're

0:09:04on stage and I want to ask I want to ask

0:09:07about the the culture here at the ballet

0:09:09too, but when you're on stage and you're

0:09:12in that flow state,

0:09:15like what are you focusing on?

0:09:18>> Nothing.

0:09:20and everything at the same time. You

0:09:23know,

0:09:25there is so much prep, there is so much

0:09:29rehearsal that goes into it, there's so

0:09:31much visualization before the show.

0:09:34There is so much um

0:09:37by hopefully by the time a performance

0:09:40goes on, you're you're not thinking,

0:09:43right? Because that almost takes you out

0:09:45of being able to tap into your artistry.

0:09:49So really what you're doing I mean the

0:09:53only time I'm ever really thinking about

0:09:56steps is if I'm anticipating something

0:10:00coming eight counts later, four counts

0:10:02later where I know it's like okay that's

0:10:05something that I'm I typically struggle

0:10:07with. I know I have to really be locked

0:10:09in and focused. Um,

0:10:12but man, to be totally honest, like on

0:10:15stage experience, I've literally had

0:10:18out-of- body experiences.

0:10:20>> I've literally watched myself

0:10:22>> dance from up in the rafters.

0:10:24>> Yep.

0:10:25>> Yeah.

0:10:26>> The craziest experience in my life, but

0:10:29that was super common. Um,

0:10:32while also certain performances, too. I

0:10:34mean, like you're just kind of out there

0:10:36with your friends.

0:10:37>> Yeah, exactly. You're just like having

0:10:39fun. You're playing like a bunch of

0:10:40kids.

0:10:41>> Yeah. You're moving. And the And the

0:10:42thing is, yes, ballet is so

0:10:46structured and so technical,

0:10:49but at the same time, there is so much

0:10:52room for interpretation

0:10:54around each step.

0:10:56>> I was kind of feeling that as I was like

0:10:58looking at some of your performances,

0:11:00you know, doing doing prep for this

0:11:02interview and asking myself that

0:11:05question is like, okay, I see the rigor.

0:11:07see how tight everything is and how

0:11:10perfect everything has to be and did and

0:11:12how much you practice and what you just

0:11:13described. But then I asked myself,

0:11:15okay, well then why does someone like

0:11:17Chase or whoever become this principle?

0:11:20Why are they so revered? Why why is it

0:11:23what is it about them and their body and

0:11:25their movement and who they choose to be

0:11:27that comes out in that performance?

0:11:29[sighs and gasps]

0:11:30>> Yeah. They call it the IT factor. Yeah.

0:11:32>> Right. Um, I think I can I can speak for

0:11:35myself in this. Um,

0:11:39but I know that when I was

0:11:43personally dancing at my best,

0:11:45um, there was this internal

0:11:51drive that was going on inside of me.

0:11:54So, I would not only make the rehearsals

0:11:57that we had to throughout the day,

0:11:59starting at 9:00 a.m. going until 4:00

0:12:01p.m., but on my off time, I would then

0:12:04go find a studio space alone. And that's

0:12:07where the real magic happened. I was

0:12:09just I was never

0:12:12never fully satisfied wal.

0:12:17And I was always trying to learn more

0:12:21and tweak things and put my own spin on

0:12:24things and manipulate them somehow to

0:12:27feel

0:12:29settled within the role. Um, and so the

0:12:33time when I would go into the studio,

0:12:34you know, I would watch one dancer do

0:12:38eight counts of this one step and then

0:12:40I'd watch another dancer do eight counts

0:12:42of this one step. and this dancer was in

0:12:44the ' 60s and this dancer was in the '9s

0:12:45and this dancer was in the 2000s.

0:12:49>> And then I would just play the music and

0:12:53I would just let my body move. And so

0:12:56what I would do eventually is just start

0:12:58to like record that and really just

0:13:01create my own my own authentic version

0:13:05of of that role. Um, and I'm not sure a

0:13:10lot of people do that. I'm not sure a

0:13:13lot of people have the the want to do

0:13:16that.

0:13:17>> Yeah, it's it's difficult enough for

0:13:19people to want to commit to something

0:13:21and then do it every single day and then

0:13:24to commit to creating your own space for

0:13:26yourself to experiment and explore,

0:13:28>> right?

0:13:29>> And so, how did you trust yourself?

0:13:32Because you're you're you're the number

0:13:34one in the world, right? Like you're

0:13:36you're it principal dancer New York City

0:13:39Ballet.

0:13:41You've got the system, you've got the

0:13:42structure, everything behind you, right?

0:13:44Because because it's a whole machine

0:13:45almost and then you're off going on your

0:13:48own and creating something

0:13:50that like who knows if it's going to

0:13:52work. Who knows? You got to get in

0:13:53front.

0:13:54>> Could just be because I'm a rebel. I

0:13:55don't know.

0:13:55>> Yeah. [laughter]

0:13:56But like how do you trust yourself to

0:13:58create something like that amongst I'm

0:14:01assuming all this pressure and

0:14:03>> and performance and legacy and history?

0:14:05>> Yeah. It's getting confident enough with

0:14:10not not necessarily what [clears throat]

0:14:13you think looks good because you can get

0:14:16so lost in that. Again, I was watching

0:14:20one film and then another film and

0:14:21another film and another film and if I

0:14:23tried to reenact seven different pieces

0:14:26of film at the exact same time, it it

0:14:28would just be overload for the mind. So

0:14:33really I mean it it was just trusting

0:14:38the feeling more than anything is what

0:14:41feels right to my system because again

0:14:44if I tried to be Brishnikov or if I

0:14:47tried to be Peter Martins or if I tried

0:14:49to be Ethan Steiffle that that's I'm

0:14:52still out of alignment with my

0:14:53authenticity there as opposed to

0:14:56watching to get reference. Now, I mean,

0:14:58honestly, a lot of the times I would

0:15:00just close my eyes and I would go, "What

0:15:02feels right in my body?"

0:15:05>> And the question that you asked is, "How

0:15:06do you trust that?" Um,

0:15:09you find out [laughter]

0:15:12you find out. Seriously, I mean, like I

0:15:16The only way to really find out is who's

0:15:18going to applaud, who's going to write

0:15:20the review, what's the review going to

0:15:22be? Are are you going to get smiles? Are

0:15:25you going to get frowns? Are you going

0:15:26to get booze? Are you going to get

0:15:27applause?

0:15:28And so really in that it takes a lot

0:15:30just a lot of and again going back to

0:15:33like being delusionally courageous when

0:15:36you are

0:15:38in the process of being so obsessed with

0:15:40something and making it your craft you

0:15:43the you have to just drown the noise

0:15:45out.

0:15:47>> Were there people that you specifically

0:15:48looked to that you like trusted

0:15:50implicitly above anyone else? [sighs]

0:15:53>> Depends what you mean. [laughter]

0:15:55>> Okay, tell me. Um so trust um is an

0:16:00interesting word. Um I trusted their

0:16:03ability to

0:16:07uh

0:16:10perform at a high caliber. Therefore I

0:16:13could trust some of their guidance

0:16:16artistically. Um

0:16:20but if you mean more in the terms of

0:16:23mentorship or if you mean in terms of

0:16:26friendship and safety um in my world it

0:16:29was it was it was hard to come across

0:16:32that

0:16:32>> really.

0:16:33>> Yeah.

0:16:34>> With the students, the teachers, the

0:16:38>> Yes.

0:16:39>> Okay.

0:16:39>> All the above. Yeah.

0:16:40>> Okay. So even these people that you come

0:16:43in with the students,

0:16:45what was it that there was a lack of

0:16:47trust or maybe lack of relationships or

0:16:50just one spot and there's a whole group

0:16:52of friends. Okay. So sure if you're

0:16:55coming up through school together,

0:16:58there are,

0:17:00you know, I mean I was in I was in the

0:17:02school of American ballet and there were

0:17:03probably

0:17:0630 men in my class.

0:17:09In order to get into that class, there

0:17:11were 300 men who auditioned in order to

0:17:14get into that class. The amount of men

0:17:16who get to New York City Ballet from

0:17:18that year is probably two.

0:17:20>> Mhm.

0:17:20>> Or maybe three. And then when you get

0:17:22into New York City Ballet or any other

0:17:24professional company, you're all going

0:17:27for Prince Sig Freed Romeo, you know,

0:17:30you're going for the the principal role,

0:17:33>> the lead,

0:17:33>> right? Um,

0:17:37so it

0:17:40it's it it it's set up in a way that

0:17:45doesn't really allow for true trusting

0:17:48friendships to form.

0:17:51I did my best. Everybody else did their

0:17:53best as well. But if you're all gunning

0:17:55for the same thing, of course there's

0:17:56going to be jealousy. There's going to

0:17:58be resentment. There's going to be all

0:18:00sorts of feelings that show up around

0:18:02that. Um

0:18:05especially when you're a teenager.

0:18:08>> Mhm. [laughter]

0:18:09>> You know.

0:18:09>> Okay. Cuz I watched the AOL videos.

0:18:11>> Yeah.

0:18:11>> And that wasn't the message on the one

0:18:14of the episodes. It was like, "We're all

0:18:15buddies. We don't fight. We [laughter]

0:18:17>> Of course it was."

0:18:18>> Yeah. Of course it was. Yeah.

0:18:20>> Yeah.

0:18:20>> It's cuz I was like 17.

0:18:22>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you were 17 at the time.

0:18:23That's right. Yeah. Uh and you were on

0:18:25TV and you were you were gunning for the

0:18:26principal spot. So what what was it

0:18:28about you that

0:18:30>> Cuz I think people want to know, right?

0:18:31Those numbers are true, but again, you

0:18:33felt like this is inevitable. I was

0:18:36around the people. I was in it. There

0:18:38was 30 other people in your your

0:18:39graduating class or about 30. You were

0:18:41one of three that made it that year and

0:18:43then you ended up at a principal. What

0:18:44was it about you that you think you made

0:18:46it

0:18:49h

0:18:53just I think it's just sheer

0:18:54determination. I think I just wanted it.

0:18:58I wanted it so bad. I wanted and and and

0:19:02I kind of want to come pivot back to why

0:19:05I started in the first place.

0:19:07Acceptance.

0:19:09I wanted to be seen. I wanted to be

0:19:11recognized. I wanted to be known for

0:19:13something. I wanted to be accepted as a

0:19:15human being.

0:19:18And that's the double-edged sword, which

0:19:21I'm I'm sure we'll get into, but um but

0:19:24that's the double-edged sword

0:19:26that was created. But for me to to get

0:19:29to where I needed um yeah, I just I just

0:19:33needed

0:19:34grit, determination,

0:19:39um like a constant growth mindset,

0:19:44um

0:19:48and really just that like internal

0:19:50hunger to to achieve what I know now is

0:19:55a sensation.

0:19:58is a feeling is a state of arrival.

0:20:03But back then, you know, obviously I was

0:20:05like, "Sure, yeah, if I get if I get to

0:20:07principal dancer, then everybody's going

0:20:08to applaud for me. Therefore, they love

0:20:10me and everything's good, right?"

0:20:14And then you get there and you're like,

0:20:16"Where the [ __ ] is the thing that I was

0:20:18gunning for?" Like, where is it? I'm not

0:20:21experiencing the internal sensation that

0:20:23I thought I was going to feel.

0:20:26But now in hindsight, looking back, it

0:20:28was I was looking for acceptance.

0:20:31I was looking for community. I was

0:20:35looking for closeness with people. I was

0:20:38looking for guidance and mentorship.

0:20:41>> Yeah. And you tried to find that through

0:20:44becoming the best.

0:20:45>> 100%.

0:20:46>> And you did.

0:20:47>> And I did. And I never found it.

0:20:49>> Yeah. [laughter] and you never found it.

0:20:51Yeah. I mean, totally totally relatable,

0:20:53right? I think there was Yeah. There was

0:20:55something else that you said, but it was

0:20:56along the lines of just wanting to be

0:20:59seen.

0:20:59>> Yeah.

0:21:00>> And just wanting someone to ask you how

0:21:02you're doing, right, along this journey

0:21:05of becoming the best,

0:21:07>> right?

0:21:08>> And not really getting that.

0:21:10>> Yeah. And it's, you know, it's like this

0:21:12insidious trap, too, because like why

0:21:15ask how someone's doing if they're doing

0:21:17the principal role, right? It's like he

0:21:20must be he must be fine. He must be he

0:21:22must be great. He's getting everything

0:21:24that he wished for.

0:21:26And I I was under the same illusion,

0:21:30right? Why should I compl Why should I

0:21:32say anything about what's going on in my

0:21:34life?

0:21:35Like I don't recognize myself in the

0:21:37mirror,

0:21:39but at the same time, I'm I'm performing

0:21:41the highest caliber roles.

0:21:45I trained my entire life for this. So

0:21:46like, don't complain. So what's the

0:21:48lesson that you take from that? The

0:21:50lesson that I take from that is

0:21:56um

0:22:09I think it's

0:22:13well I mean other than like slow down

0:22:16[laughter]

0:22:17Uh,

0:22:20it's that

0:22:24what we're all looking for.

0:22:28What so many humans are looking for in

0:22:32performance

0:22:33is to be known, is to be understood, is

0:22:36to be seen, is to be felt,

0:22:39is to be accepted. Um,

0:22:44and

0:22:47how back then I I I I honestly don't

0:22:50know how I would have known different.

0:22:53I don't. And so the real lesson is is

0:22:57how do I pass that on to the next

0:23:00generation, right? The lesson for me is

0:23:02like, okay, now that I understand that

0:23:04from living it,

0:23:07how can I help somebody else and not

0:23:09have to [sighs]

0:23:11pass that point where they can

0:23:15experience the beauty that I mean there

0:23:17really is beauty of like being in that

0:23:19high level performance

0:23:21but having the same wisdom that I have

0:23:23now.

0:23:24>> Yeah. Because it it's it drives people.

0:23:27It creates incredible results. It makes

0:23:32men men women. It makes teams teams like

0:23:36it does a lot.

0:23:37>> Yeah.

0:23:37>> But it also can create loneliness and

0:23:41and regret and

0:23:44actions that you might not be aligned

0:23:47with or proud of, you know, in the end.

0:23:48Yeah.

0:23:49>> Yeah. And and I always tell, you know,

0:23:52my patients and a lot of people, it's

0:23:54like

0:23:56my belief is the greatest form of

0:23:58disease is being out of alignment with

0:24:01your authenticity, out of alignment with

0:24:03what you know to be true. [snorts]

0:24:05And

0:24:08again, I'm I'm not trying to say that my

0:24:11career wasn't beautiful and wasn't

0:24:13incredible and something that I

0:24:15shouldn't be grateful for, but that was

0:24:17true throughout the entire thing cuz

0:24:20what I was after was something so much

0:24:22deeper [snorts] than everything that was

0:24:24going on out here.

0:24:25>> Yeah. And so, let's talk about that. The

0:24:27the misalignment or leaving living the

0:24:29double life because you uh you were in

0:24:32vogue twice, right? Yeah. And you were

0:24:35labeled the golden boy.

0:24:37>> What was going on when you got that

0:24:40label?

0:24:41>> Yeah. I mean, a lot of people would be

0:24:44like, you know, that's the the the

0:24:46coolest honor in the world. And for me,

0:24:48my stomach just dropped. I I was like,

0:24:51"Oh my god, I know what this this

0:24:53means." And what this means is now I

0:24:58have a role to play everywhere.

0:25:01Now I have shoes to fill all the time.

0:25:04So for me it was actually an immense

0:25:06weight. It was it was this like

0:25:11suffocation that happened for me. And

0:25:14again the recognition is what I'd been

0:25:17dreaming for. But once again being out

0:25:20of alignment with what I

0:25:22was actually desiring deep down. It was

0:25:25it was um

0:25:27Yeah, it was it was it was suffocating

0:25:30for sure.

0:25:31>> Mhm. What made it suffocating? Like what

0:25:35cuz you were I guess I'm asking also

0:25:38like

0:25:41you were in an environment I think you

0:25:43were in an environment that was also out

0:25:46of congruence with maybe the message or

0:25:49what they were doing, right? the the

0:25:52trainings, the teachers, the the ballet,

0:25:56the the addiction that was going on

0:25:58behind the scenes, right? All that. And

0:26:01I'm I'm sort of curious as to like how

0:26:03that played into how you were showing

0:26:06up, how you were feeling in that moment.

0:26:08>> Yeah. Um [clears throat]

0:26:12I I mean, short answer, yeah, it

0:26:14absolutely played a part in that. I

0:26:17mean, kind of the the overarching

0:26:20message was like, I don't care what you

0:26:22do out here as long as you are

0:26:26ready to perform at at at at your top

0:26:29capacity when when it's time.

0:26:32>> Mhm.

0:26:33>> And performance wasn't just on stage.

0:26:37Performance was every single gala

0:26:40performance that we had. dancers not

0:26:43only danced for all the donors, but then

0:26:46the donors would buy tables for us to

0:26:49come off stage. We would get dressed up

0:26:51by the top designers in New York and

0:26:55then we would go kind of like show

0:26:56ponying

0:26:57>> Mhm.

0:26:58>> for the donors and then there's dance

0:27:01party after and you're intermingling

0:27:02with with the donors. So the lines got

0:27:06really blurred as to what was

0:27:08performance and what was not. Um,

0:27:13so again, that reinforcement of, you

0:27:16know, you're this 19-year-old kid

0:27:20[laughter]

0:27:21who was just on the cover of the New

0:27:24York Times, labeled as the golden boy.

0:27:27>> Mhm. And at the same time,

0:27:30the

0:27:32attention that was coming in,

0:27:36the attention that I desired was

0:27:40closeness,

0:27:42intimate communication,

0:27:44knowing that my director or my teacher

0:27:47had my back no matter what. But instead,

0:27:50it was this complete stranger who I know

0:27:54makes is very wealthy, is very

0:27:56prestigious in New York, doesn't really

0:27:58know much about ballet, but is

0:28:02is there to kind of um bolster the story

0:28:06that is going on in my life about me. So

0:28:10yeah, I mean there there was there was

0:28:12direct reinforcement that kind of just

0:28:14like grew this

0:28:19um this like mask that I had to wear at

0:28:22all times.

0:28:23>> Yeah. And

0:28:25throughout that process, what I found,

0:28:28especially

0:28:30with the simultaneous [snorts]

0:28:32addiction that I was

0:28:35completely unable to get away from, it's

0:28:38like all these different layers were

0:28:40starting to build up around me. And then

0:28:42ultimately like, okay, where'd Chase go?

0:28:45[laughter]

0:28:47Like like I said, there were there were

0:28:49there were times throughout

0:28:51probably a

0:28:546 7 8 year time span where I would look

0:28:57at myself in the mirror. I was like, I

0:28:59don't know that person. I don't know

0:29:02that person.

0:29:03>> I can literally still see

0:29:07the reflection of myself.

0:29:09Yeah. Yeah. And you know exactly what

0:29:12I'm talking about, but I can still see

0:29:14the reflection of myself. I think the

0:29:16last time I really looked at myself in

0:29:17the mirror before I got sober

0:29:20>> and it's like gray skin. Yeah.

0:29:23>> Gray eyes,

0:29:25just my a voice in the back of my mind

0:29:29>> screaming at me silently, you know, just

0:29:31like this is not you. What are you

0:29:33doing? What happened to you?

0:29:35>> Yeah.

0:29:35>> I can still see that image.

0:29:37>> Yeah. I remember I don't remember

0:29:39exactly what day it was, but it was not

0:29:41too long before I decided to to quit

0:29:45drinking. Yeah.

0:29:46>> Good for you, man.

0:29:47>> Well, I mean, good for you. Yeah, but

0:29:49that's that's what it does. Like, we

0:29:52we're these children

0:29:54>> Mhm. that have dreams

0:29:58and we chase those dreams and then the

0:30:01stress

0:30:03despite the success right and having

0:30:06these men and these donors and these

0:30:08people around you I don't know what what

0:30:11that felt like or what type of

0:30:13environment that created around you and

0:30:14you said you just want a a close

0:30:17intimate connection in in a in a loving

0:30:20healthy way and it was like something

0:30:22completely different. So

0:30:25>> yeah, and drugs and alcohol, they they

0:30:28help you cope and they're fun and you're

0:30:2919 in New York and Yeah.

0:30:31>> Right.

0:30:32>> Well, when did you first start because

0:30:33it was cocaine, right?

0:30:35>> Yeah. I mean, you know, throughout my

0:30:38teenage years and and

0:30:41you know, there there was there was

0:30:43drinking and marijuana

0:30:45at parties and and stuff like that, but

0:30:48>> the trifecta,

0:30:48>> right? [laughter]

0:30:51Um, but there was something that,

0:30:56you know, I I like to say that like

0:31:00cocaine found me with a purpose. Like it

0:31:03like knew it it knew that I was

0:31:07vulnerable. [snorts]

0:31:08Um because again being at this young age

0:31:12being

0:31:14where I was in my life at the time is I

0:31:18always say that drugs and alcohol do one

0:31:21of two things for people. It's it's it

0:31:23helps them make them more of what they

0:31:26want to be or it helps drown out

0:31:30something that they don't want to feel.

0:31:31>> Mh. And for me, it was I I just couldn't

0:31:37even believe that I was where I was in

0:31:42my life and what was all going on.

0:31:45And again, as all these masks came up,

0:31:48there was a part of me that was like, I

0:31:50want to get the hell out of here.

0:31:52>> I want to get the hell out of here, and

0:31:54I don't know what to do. I don't know

0:31:55how to carry myself.

0:31:57And the second I experienced that false

0:32:02boost of confidence, that false just

0:32:05like egocentric, egoomaniac, like not

0:32:09giving a [ __ ] about what other people

0:32:12thought about me. [gasps]

0:32:14That is where I was like, here here we

0:32:17are. We got it.

0:32:18>> Yeah,

0:32:18>> we got it. Right. And so,

0:32:22yeah, it

0:32:26it was the it was the thing that that

0:32:29that tipped me over the edge, you know,

0:32:32because there were so many I I can't

0:32:37even count the amount of times that I

0:32:40said, I'm going to go have dinner and a

0:32:44drink because I just finished a

0:32:46performance. My muscles hurt. We're I'm

0:32:49just going to have one [snorts]

0:32:51and the next thing I know it's 6:00 a.m.

0:32:53the next day.

0:32:54>> Yeah.

0:32:55>> And I'm still going.

0:32:58Countless countless times did that

0:33:00happen.

0:33:00>> Would that have happened in Connecticut?

0:33:02>> In Connecticut?

0:33:03>> Yeah. [laughter] You know what I mean

0:33:04though? Like proximity. Would it have

0:33:06happened in Connecticut if you were

0:33:07living at home or you know?

0:33:10>> Interesting. Um I don't think so.

0:33:14Um,

0:33:15>> so being in the city,

0:33:17>> yeah, it was it was more about, you

0:33:19know,

0:33:23I haven't even really thought about it

0:33:25this way, but but for me, I feel like

0:33:28there was still a need to have parental

0:33:30supervision.

0:33:32>> And the people who stepped into th that

0:33:36role in my life were people who were

0:33:38equally as misled as I was, right? that

0:33:42they were they were taught to do the

0:33:44exact same thing that they were

0:33:45teaching.

0:33:45>> It's like babies raising babies like

0:33:47>> totally blind leading the blind like

0:33:49Yeah.

0:33:50>> Um

0:33:52so it's not to blame. It's just again

0:33:55it's for me it's more of just like the

0:33:58the environment and the system that was

0:34:03that that's created um or had been

0:34:07created like a hundred years ago. That

0:34:09just hasn't changed.

0:34:11Um really it it just it just it really

0:34:15fostered that kind of behavior and and

0:34:17because the thing is like it wasn't

0:34:19wasn't just me, right? Like I wasn't

0:34:22just like the singular drug addict who

0:34:23was like running around causing mayhem

0:34:25like it was all around me.

0:34:28>> Yeah. Yeah. And when I just had

0:34:32something flash into my mind, like a

0:34:34feeling that I got, especially in like

0:34:36high school or college drinking was this

0:34:39feeling of acceptance.

0:34:40>> Yes.

0:34:42>> Right.

0:34:42>> 100%.

0:34:43>> I would even I didn't I didn't ever do

0:34:45cocaine or anything. It was like uh

0:34:47booze and and weed. That was that was

0:34:49it. But in college, I would like be in

0:34:52the rooms while everyone else was like

0:34:54snorting stuff up their nose.

0:34:55>> Mhm.

0:34:56>> And it was just like, "Yep, I'm in the

0:34:57room. We're hanging out." Like what? But

0:34:59it was part of that acceptance thing

0:35:00like totally hey I don't want to do it

0:35:02but I'm like I'm not you know I'm not an

0:35:04arc I guess [laughter] right

0:35:06>> you know

0:35:07>> but I remember now and I haven't thought

0:35:09about this the feeling of acceptance uh

0:35:11of getting drunk right and being at a

0:35:13party or whatever it is

0:35:15>> uh and then doing other drugs feeling

0:35:17that acceptance.

0:35:18>> Yeah.

0:35:18>> Yeah. That's a common

0:35:20>> Yeah. And and again, you know, my my

0:35:22life was based on

0:35:25dopamine and euphoria, [laughter]

0:35:28right? Like these these outof body

0:35:31experiences that I would have on stage

0:35:33on a nightly basis, thousands of people

0:35:36applauding, it's like, holy [ __ ] Like,

0:35:39how how do you get more dopamine than

0:35:41that? Oh, okay. You go across the

0:35:44street, you know the bartenders, they

0:35:46supply you with as much alcohol as you

0:35:48want. Yeah.

0:35:49>> And

0:35:50you start using cocaine.

0:35:52>> Yeah. [laughter]

0:35:53Check, check, check.

0:35:53>> Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

0:35:54>> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, with

0:35:56little parent parental supervision in

0:35:58the city, you're also like the other

0:36:00thing for me was,

0:36:02>> you know, functioning alcoholic. That's

0:36:04a, you know, I don't think people say

0:36:05that very much anymore, but like that

0:36:06was a thing, you know.

0:36:08>> Yeah.

0:36:08>> But it was like, oh, I'm going to I'm

0:36:10going to work. I'm getting my work done.

0:36:11Like, so same thing for you.

0:36:13>> On the surface, everything is like, I

0:36:17did it. Yep. I did it. And that

0:36:21facade, that mask that I built was

0:36:24reinforced

0:36:26for

0:36:2815 years before I even got there. Right.

0:36:31The discipline, the rigor, the the

0:36:33structure, the

0:36:36high performance, the um

0:36:40the the golden boy was created before

0:36:42the New York Times article. You know

0:36:44what I'm saying?

0:36:45>> Yeah. like I was practicing that for a

0:36:48very very very long time. And so

0:36:53even on those days where it was 6:00 in

0:36:56the morning and I hadn't gotten any

0:36:59sleep, I could still make it to the

0:37:03theater. You know, I I would go to the

0:37:05gym and try to sauna and sweat as much

0:37:07as I could and then I would make it to

0:37:08the theater by [gasps] 11 o'clock and

0:37:11I'd be on stage at 12:30

0:37:14>> with no sleep.

0:37:15>> None.

0:37:16>> Just all out the night before.

0:37:18>> It's It's like a nightmare. It is the

0:37:20worst. It was the worst experience of my

0:37:23life every single time.

0:37:24>> Mhm.

0:37:25>> But I kept doing it.

0:37:27>> Yeah. Why do you think?

0:37:29>> Because I was powerless. I was literally

0:37:34um

0:37:37I had

0:37:39well let me go deeper than that. I had

0:37:41an I had made an acknowledgement with

0:37:43myself that I would never

0:37:50jeopardize

0:37:52what I worked so hard to get to.

0:37:54>> Yeah.

0:37:55I was never I I wouldn't jeopardize the

0:37:58one thing that I thought was giving me

0:38:01acceptance and recognition in life.

0:38:03>> Yeah. And not jeopardizing it meant

0:38:04still showing up.

0:38:06>> Yeah.

0:38:06>> No matter the state that you're in,

0:38:08still showing up, keeping the position.

0:38:11>> Yeah.

0:38:11>> Yeah. Cuz because remember the the the

0:38:14sentiment was

0:38:16>> you can do whatever you want out there

0:38:18>> as long as it stays out there and you

0:38:20show up and you perform well. How do you

0:38:22feel about that in

0:38:24sports and culture and even in working

0:38:27or relationships? I think it's

0:38:31completely damaging. I mean I mean at

0:38:34least to me the message was

0:38:38I don't give a [ __ ] about what you feel.

0:38:41I don't give a [ __ ] about what's going

0:38:43on internally for you. I don't care

0:38:45about what's going on inside of your

0:38:46mind. As long as you produce

0:38:51in a way that is up to my standard, then

0:38:55you're a favored

0:38:57as opposed to

0:39:01are you okay? [laughter] Right? Because

0:39:03I mean I don't I don't I don't know how

0:39:06it couldn't have been more obvious,

0:39:09>> but they didn't care, right?

0:39:11that at least that's the impression that

0:39:13was was given off.

0:39:14>> Yeah.

0:39:15>> Yeah.

0:39:16>> And so what else was going on,

0:39:18you know, because I want to we're

0:39:20leading up to a question a couple

0:39:21questions about, you know, the scandal

0:39:23and and I don't want to spend too much

0:39:25time on that because and we'll get into

0:39:27why, but

0:39:29>> um there there's also this like you

0:39:31described this scene of you performing

0:39:32for the donors and my mind goes right to

0:39:34like over sexualization of kids. Yeah,

0:39:37you're 19, but like dressing up in

0:39:38costumes, rich people. Now we've got the

0:39:41Epstein files out now. Like I'm like

0:39:43this just feels like a eyes wide shut

0:39:45kind of weird like and so like what was

0:39:48the

0:39:49>> kind of the sexualization piece of it

0:39:52that went on um at the ballet?

0:39:56>> It was everything

0:39:58front and center.

0:40:01I I mean

0:40:05I can tell you the 15 years that I was

0:40:08there professionally I

0:40:12maybe had like one- on-one conversation

0:40:17like

0:40:19clean innocent conversation one- on-one

0:40:21with probably like three or four donors

0:40:26out of the hundreds that would come to

0:40:27every single Galla performance. And

0:40:30that's not because you're like not

0:40:31talking to them. You're saying you've

0:40:33had plenty of conversations.

0:40:34>> Yeah.

0:40:35>> With all of them. And only three to

0:40:36four. Okay.

0:40:38>> Yeah.

0:40:39>> It's like

0:40:41again contributing to the same theme of

0:40:46you got to look good, you got to perform

0:40:48well, you got to be impressive for me to

0:40:53care. M and

0:40:57within that as well is you know the the

0:41:00the supply of of

0:41:02liquor and booze and and drugs too,

0:41:05right? I mean, yeah. I mean, to answer

0:41:08your original question question of the

0:41:10sexualization, it's I mean, it it had

0:41:13gotten to the place numerous times with

0:41:16both men and women

0:41:20donors asking for that question directly

0:41:25for sexual interactions

0:41:29>> really

0:41:29>> as a kid. Yeah.

0:41:31>> [clears throat]

0:41:33>> And so like what what did you do with

0:41:36that or like how did that make you feel?

0:41:39>> I mean it made me feel just it just

0:41:41violated

0:41:43um unsafe

0:41:45um

0:41:48scared [laughter] scared honestly

0:41:52uh because you're not allowed to say no.

0:41:57So if you do then there's the likelihood

0:42:01that this person won't

0:42:05start coming to the ballet. You won't

0:42:07get favored by the director. You're not

0:42:10going to get that role because he finds

0:42:11out that you didn't obey.

0:42:16So

0:42:18yeah, scared scared for for

0:42:24myself and for my career as well.

0:42:34Do the parents

0:42:38and everyone

0:42:40like does everyone know about this going

0:42:42into this environment? No, [laughter]

0:42:47they know

0:42:49about the performance.

0:42:52They know that their child gets to live

0:42:56out their dream of performing on [sighs]

0:43:01the [clears throat]

0:43:02largest stages with the greatest

0:43:04audiences, with the greatest costumes,

0:43:06with the greatest history, right?

0:43:11They get to Yeah. fulfill their dream.

0:43:15Um,

0:43:17and a lot of that is is met with with

0:43:21just c celebration for that, right? But

0:43:23but it's

0:43:27everything else that go, you know, and

0:43:28it's like there's there's over

0:43:31dramatized movies and novels that come

0:43:33out about dance, but it it kind of just

0:43:37feels like everyone just kind of like

0:43:40looks the other way and they're like,

0:43:41"Oh, that's just a movie." Or like, "Oh,

0:43:43that's just a

0:43:46It's not actually. It's it's it's

0:43:49>> and and you know, I can't I can't speak

0:43:51for every single company in the world,

0:43:52but like it it's common. It's way too

0:43:56common.

0:43:58>> Is there any more that you want to

0:43:59share? I like don't even know what

0:44:00question to ask cuz I'm like, yeah. Is

0:44:03there any more that you want to share

0:44:04about that?

0:44:06I mean, the impact that it had on me was

0:44:07it just skewed my understanding of what

0:44:11relationship was, like relationship in

0:44:13general,

0:44:15I had no idea, right? Like, do you talk

0:44:20about your feelings? Do you talk about

0:44:23like do you stab each other in the back

0:44:24to try to get the same role? Do you have

0:44:26sex with each other? Like, what

0:44:28[laughter] like what's what's real? You

0:44:31know,

0:44:32>> what's appropriate? what's h how do you

0:44:34conduct yourself as a healthy

0:44:38entering adulthood person, you know? Um,

0:44:43and so there, yeah, it was it was just a

0:44:45lot of like

0:44:47confusion that was created in that,

0:44:50>> you know, cuz the one second I'd be

0:44:53[laughter]

0:44:54at the White House shaking Obama's hand

0:44:56and the next I'm doing a photo shoot

0:44:59with Sarah Jessica Parker and like her

0:45:02clothes are coming off and [laughter]

0:45:04>> Yeah.

0:45:04>> You know, or something like that. It's

0:45:05like I don't what is

0:45:08>> what is real?

0:45:08>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so then did the

0:45:11drugs play a part in trying to figure

0:45:13that out or

0:45:14>> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Which

0:45:16created even more confusion to be

0:45:18honest. Um

0:45:20>> Yeah. And and again kind of like

0:45:22referring back to the

0:45:26mentorship that was available to me. It

0:45:30was

0:45:32someone who went through the exact same

0:45:33thing that I, you know, and

0:45:38trying to

0:45:41navigate a relationship like that with

0:45:44the over sexualized nature of that world

0:45:48with drugs and alcohol at play

0:45:51constantly.

0:45:52>> [snorts]

0:45:53>> I mean there was

0:45:56this has come as a result of of of doing

0:45:58the work that that I've done over the

0:46:01past seven and a half eight years. But

0:46:04I didn't I the the the wires had become

0:46:07completely crossed of

0:46:10sex and love. Sex and love were the

0:46:13exact same thing to me

0:46:16>> for a long time. I

0:46:22was

0:46:25I I had fallen I had fallen victim to

0:46:27that that idea like that that had become

0:46:30like a foundational piece of like my

0:46:33internal working and um

0:46:38it's what was it it's what was socially

0:46:41acceptable. So you're saying anyone that

0:46:43you slept with during that time loved or

0:46:47expected love and then trust

0:46:50>> and vice versa

0:46:50>> and vice versa,

0:46:51>> right?

0:46:52>> Was that what happened?

0:46:53>> Yeah.

0:46:54>> Okay. Okay. No, I mean with the people

0:46:57that you were in relation with.

0:46:59>> Yeah.

0:47:00>> Okay.

0:47:00>> Yeah. I mean it was um

0:47:06Yeah. I mean the the the the the

0:47:08mentorship went from

0:47:11uh exactly what I wanted which I think

0:47:14was the the the kind of disguise part of

0:47:18you know an older male figure to

0:47:22listen to understand to help me feel

0:47:26part of

0:47:28um you know coming over to my apartment

0:47:30when I was 17 and I was like the shy kid

0:47:34also you you get into a company that

0:47:37people had been working

0:47:40at least a decade to get to some of the

0:47:43things that I was given when I first got

0:47:44in. And

0:47:47spoiler alert, dancers don't love that,

0:47:49right? This like new kid comes in, he's

0:47:51taking my roles already. What the hell?

0:47:53>> So my

0:47:56my circle was was was pretty small. Like

0:47:59I was closed off is so it felt. Um,

0:48:04so being accepted was even more like,

0:48:06oh, cool. Like I I made it like this is

0:48:09the circle of like cool guys who like go

0:48:12out and party and like, okay, cool. Like

0:48:13I I I'll choose them, right? [snorts]

0:48:16And it went from

0:48:19yeah like talking about um

0:48:23like struggles that I was having in my

0:48:25family and like struggles that I was

0:48:28having in my my performance and you know

0:48:31really supportive to

0:48:34drugs becoming present to hey I think

0:48:39that

0:48:41this girl would really like you so why

0:48:43don't we invite her over as

0:48:45and that person being 10 years older

0:48:47than me as well. um

0:48:50to you know

0:48:52if you sleep with this person like you

0:48:56know the the the chances of like getting

0:48:58in that inner circle and getting more

0:49:00roles it's probably going to happen

0:49:02right so that happening to none of it at

0:49:05all him just taking advantage of me

0:49:08>> which was

0:49:11also

0:49:12a

0:49:16probably one of the things that

0:49:18fractured that healthy system of the

0:49:20differentiation between love and sex.

0:49:23That happened to me is I was like, wait,

0:49:26but this is if I say no, then I'm going

0:49:30to lose the acceptance that I've was

0:49:32given in the first place, the thing that

0:49:35I was that was I was truly after.

0:49:37>> Do you think that was his intent the

0:49:39whole time?

0:49:43>> It's hard to say. Um,

0:49:49yes.

0:49:51Um, but only because it's what he knew

0:49:55cuz it happened to him, too.

0:49:58>> Yeah. So, you're forgiving him.

0:50:00>> I've forgiven him. Yes. Yeah.

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0:51:20right, back to the show. What happened

0:51:21next? Okay, so what happened next? Um,

0:51:26you know, so again, the

0:51:29the

0:51:32group of

0:51:35uh guy friendss that that I was kind of

0:51:38hanging out with at the time. Um,

0:51:43it's so funny.

0:51:45not funny, but it it's just ironic

0:51:47because Golden Boy on stage, but then

0:51:51Bad Boy offstage is kind of what it was

0:51:53becoming. Um, you know, Party Animal go

0:51:57to go to the the clubs and, you know,

0:51:59it's like um

0:52:03but then Apollo and the Prince on stage,

0:52:06you know, it's it's this weird

0:52:07dichotomy. Um,

0:52:10but when you get into that kind of

0:52:14lifestyle of partying a lot and drinking

0:52:17and drugging and not knowing the

0:52:19difference between sex and love and um,

0:52:22you start to attract

0:52:25a community that also has the same

0:52:27beliefs um, or the same teachings or the

0:52:29same lessons. And

0:52:31so the that that group got small. It we

0:52:35fed off of each other. It was it was it

0:52:38had become

0:52:39super unhealthy. Um

0:52:43nothing super damaging but just just

0:52:45unhealthy, right? Not a direction that I

0:52:48was wanting to go with my life at all.

0:52:49Um,

0:52:51and so I think the the the pivotal

0:52:55moment, you know, cuz there were

0:52:59times over the years where I came in the

0:53:01next morning and I was smelling a little

0:53:02bit too much like alcohol from the night

0:53:04before and but I always, you know, still

0:53:07I I prided myself. I never drank before

0:53:09work. [laughter]

0:53:10>> Yeah.

0:53:11>> May have been

0:53:13>> sort of before.

0:53:14>> Sort of before.

0:53:14>> Yeah. But not

0:53:15>> but never intentionally like g, you

0:53:17know,

0:53:17>> woke up in the morning, right? Yeah. I

0:53:19same same here. I I I had that on my

0:53:23shoulder of like, "Oh, well, yeah, I

0:53:24don't need to drink before."

0:53:25>> The lies we tell ourselves.

0:53:26>> Yeah. Right. [laughter]

0:53:27>> Yeah.

0:53:28>> Um

0:53:30and so we were we were traveling in in

0:53:35Paris, somewhere where we used to go

0:53:37dance a lot. And um I was only supposed

0:53:40to perform the first three nights that I

0:53:42was there. So to me, I was like, "This

0:53:45is the best deal. I get to show up. I

0:53:46get to perform. and then I get three,

0:53:49four days in Paris to just let loose.

0:53:52Um, which I did. I did that. Um, so I

0:53:56had my first three performances. They

0:53:57were fine. You know, everything went

0:53:59well. Um, and I proceeded to do what I

0:54:04was doing in my life, but just in Paris.

0:54:07And I get the call that somebody had

0:54:10gotten injured or gotten ill or

0:54:12something. And I had to come back on the

0:54:14next day. um in rare form as as I had

0:54:18been living my life. And um

0:54:22something that I

0:54:25pride myself in as a male dancer is my

0:54:29partnering skills. So, New York City

0:54:32Ballet was actually, you know, I

0:54:35honorable with this is that

0:54:39you can be the best dancer, but if you

0:54:42can't match your skills in dancing with

0:54:44your partnering, then you're not going

0:54:46to get you're not going to get the lead

0:54:48roles because still

0:54:51George Balanchin, one of his phrases is

0:54:53ballet is woman. Like, it is it is made

0:54:56for her. the men's role is to come and

0:54:59just emphasize her movement

0:55:02>> until Nurv changed the whole thing and

0:55:04then men started to dance. Um,

0:55:10but that show, you know, I was dizzy, I

0:55:14was shaky, you know, it had gotten to a

0:55:17place in my alcoholism that it I just

0:55:20could no longer hide it. Um, and we came

0:55:22off stage from

0:55:24our first poda and this was a probably

0:55:28an hour and a half long long ballet. So

0:55:30there were this was the first five

0:55:32minutes of that. And she looked me dead

0:55:36in the eyes and put her finger in my

0:55:38chest and said, "I can't trust you.

0:55:42I'm done."

0:55:45Literally like done with the show. M and

0:55:49it was going on

0:55:50>> going on.

0:55:51>> Yeah.

0:55:52>> So the panic, the dread, but the shame

0:55:56and the disappointment that settled

0:55:58within my body in that moment because

0:56:03that was the moment where I woke up to

0:56:06the fact that it was harming other

0:56:07people.

0:56:09I was so for me I didn't care. I I was

0:56:13to the point where I did not care if I

0:56:15if I was harming myself, if I felt like

0:56:17[ __ ] if I don't care.

0:56:19>> Yeah, I'm not hurting anybody else.

0:56:21>> Right. [snorts]

0:56:23But I started to see like, and it wasn't

0:56:26and it wasn't just the words she said.

0:56:28It was the look. It was the look and it

0:56:30was the just the deep knowing of like, I

0:56:32know,

0:56:33>> you know, I know I'm not safe to be

0:56:35around.

0:56:37And

0:56:39so after that show proceeded to have a

0:56:43conversation with the director of the

0:56:45company at the time and you know he said

0:56:49hey man I don't know what's going on

0:56:50with you but

0:56:52uh we're going to suspend you without

0:56:54pay for the rest of the summer. [snorts]

0:56:56When we go to Saratoga at the end of the

0:56:58summer we'll have you back or we'll

0:56:59we'll redis and um but but but just go

0:57:03figure it out.

0:57:05And so I had no idea what figure it out

0:57:08meant other than go party in Paris for

0:57:14>> Right. So So the I feel shame, so I'm

0:57:17going to go

0:57:18>> I did what I knew how to do.

0:57:19>> Yeah.

0:57:20>> Yeah. Because because you you talked

0:57:22about, oh, I had a good performance. I'm

0:57:24going to go to the bar, get a drink,

0:57:25whatever.

0:57:26>> Yeah.

0:57:26>> The other like double-edged sword of

0:57:28addiction is no matter what emotion

0:57:30you're feeling, Yeah.

0:57:31>> you go run to the addiction. Great

0:57:34performance,

0:57:36careerending performance. I'm going to

0:57:38drink about it.

0:57:38>> Yeah,

0:57:39>> 100%.

0:57:40>> Yeah.

0:57:41>> Because at that point, there had not

0:57:45been

0:57:46enough or any intervention at a place to

0:57:50where it could have

0:57:53been dealt with appropriately. Yeah. You

0:57:54know, so yeah, I mean, it was it was it

0:57:56was completely on top of me. I didn't

0:57:59know I didn't know what was real life

0:58:01and what was what was my just alcoholic

0:58:05perception of reality of what was going

0:58:07on around me.

0:58:09So, um yeah, I I continued to run from

0:58:13my feelings and I stayed there for

0:58:15probably another week. The company had

0:58:17left. I just stayed with a with a friend

0:58:20of mine. Um and

0:58:24eventually I made it back to New York.

0:58:26And when I had got back to my apartment,

0:58:30I went open my door and I saw an

0:58:33envelope with legal documents waiting

0:58:36for me.

0:58:39And that

0:58:42I mean, if if I didn't have enough

0:58:44evidence already, um

0:58:47that for me was what the qu the the

0:58:52question that I asked myself is how the

0:58:53hell did I get here? Like seriously,

0:58:56like what happened

0:59:00or what didn't happen that was supposed

0:59:01to, right? Like what happened or what

0:59:04didn't happen? [snorts] Um

0:59:07it was a full body just like

0:59:10freeze.

0:59:11>> Mhm.

0:59:13And you know the the the moment that you

0:59:16talked about is I went inside my

0:59:18apartment

0:59:19and I just put my hands on the sink in

0:59:23the bathroom and I looked at myself dead

0:59:25in the eyes

0:59:27and

0:59:29I did not recognize that person.

0:59:32I that was so far from

0:59:37the

0:59:38innocent, playful, loyal,

0:59:43uh, curious,

0:59:45artistic

0:59:47version of me who was

0:59:50running around in the yard putting

0:59:51costumes on and pretending to be their

0:59:54favorite Disney character. You know that

0:59:57like lifetimes had passed since that

1:00:00person was was around.

1:00:02Um,

1:00:04and so that was the moment for me where

1:00:06I just said,

1:00:08I don't know what to do, but like I

1:00:10yeah, I I need to do something about

1:00:12this because this is

1:00:17if if life didn't intervene on me in

1:00:20that moment, I don't think I would have

1:00:21made it

1:00:22>> because COVID happened right after

1:00:25>> and the ballet went into layoff. And if

1:00:28I was in that bad of a a position right

1:00:30before co I honestly don't think I would

1:00:32have made it.

1:00:34>> And so luckily um

1:00:39you know I have three siblings

1:00:44all four of us struggle with the same

1:00:45disease.

1:00:47Um, so my older brother had been through

1:00:50the process of of getting well and

1:00:53pointed me in the right direction and

1:00:56um,

1:00:58so the well I guess it was two days

1:01:01after that because I did end up getting

1:01:04more alcohol and cocaine. [laughter]

1:01:07>> Like one last

1:01:08>> one last harrah, right?

1:01:09>> Um,

1:01:14yeah. just to see if I was still alive

1:01:15in there somewhere and I wasn't. Um,

1:01:20so I left my apartment, went to the

1:01:24airport, um,

1:01:27did what I knew how to do at the

1:01:28airport, and that was to continue to

1:01:30drink. And then I woke up in South Texas

1:01:34in a detox room.

1:01:38And the so the first moment that I had

1:01:40of how the hell did you get here was in

1:01:42that ba in my bathroom. The second was

1:01:45in that bathroom. [laughter]

1:01:47>> I was in a room in South Texas

1:01:50surrounded by people who were like

1:01:52crawling out of their skin from heroin

1:01:53and methamphetamine

1:01:55withdrawal and detox. And

1:01:57>> these are not my people.

1:01:58>> These are that this is not where I

1:02:00belong. I made a huge mistake.

1:02:02>> Mhm. The thing that I recognized when I

1:02:05was in treatment was that they started

1:02:08to smile before me.

1:02:11They started to laugh before me. They

1:02:13started to interact with the community

1:02:15before me.

1:02:17And that's where I had to take a look

1:02:19long hard look at myself and I said,

1:02:21"Oh, that's right. I am I actually am

1:02:24different. Like I'm I might be worse

1:02:27than these guys. like I may have gone

1:02:30further down the scale than these guys

1:02:32actually have. And that was a wakeup

1:02:36call to me

1:02:38because

1:02:41without substances in my system, I

1:02:44didn't think that happy like true happy

1:02:48existed for me anymore.

1:02:51>> I thought there were moments of euphoria

1:02:53from performance. I thought there were

1:02:54moments of euphoria from drugs and

1:02:57partying and sex and Sure. Yeah,

1:03:01but I didn't think that just true sober

1:03:04joy existed.

1:03:08>> So, how many days in was that or how

1:03:10long in was that?

1:03:11>> That was pro I was stubborn. [laughter]

1:03:14>> Okay.

1:03:15>> It was probably two to three weeks.

1:03:17>> Okay. Not bad. No, no, not bad. Not bad.

1:03:19>> Not bad. Not bad. But, but this was

1:03:20intended to be a 30-day program. So,

1:03:24>> you know, it I had gotten No, I'm sorry.

1:03:2745day program. And so I finally turned a

1:03:32corner and I was like, you know what?

1:03:36I'm here. I'm going to go I'm going to

1:03:38go all in on this thing. I'm going to

1:03:40just just

1:03:41see what happens.

1:03:43Um,

1:03:45and a big moment for me in treatment

1:03:47was, you know, this this is my first

1:03:50interaction with personal development,

1:03:52recovery, tools, therapy,

1:03:56healthy, supportive community that

1:03:58didn't want anything from me. Um

1:04:01and so

1:04:04uh

1:04:07the the the the recommendation that was

1:04:10being given to me at the time was was

1:04:11just start praying.

1:04:13And

1:04:16my the thought that was going on in my

1:04:17head was like uh that sounds cool,

1:04:21right? like that that concept sounds

1:04:23great but like

1:04:26usually when people pray like there's a

1:04:27destination and I didn't grow up with

1:04:30any formal religion or any even

1:04:33spiritual concept. So I was just like

1:04:35dude I don't know like if there's no

1:04:36destination like what am I what am I

1:04:39talking to like what what's the

1:04:41conversation that's being had here? Um

1:04:43otherwise it's just empty words and then

1:04:45just pray just keep praying. So, I got

1:04:48to a place where I was like, "Okay, I'm

1:04:51I'm going to try something here." And

1:04:54for me,

1:04:56what ended up finally making sense was

1:05:00all of the confusion, all of the pain,

1:05:04all of the torment, all of the

1:05:06self-hatred, all of the loneliness, all

1:05:09of the anxiety, [snorts]

1:05:12the list goes on. Um, that I had been

1:05:15experiencing. And I just imagined myself

1:05:18crumbling [snorts] that up into a little

1:05:20ball of just filth and throwing it out

1:05:24to the universe as far as I possibly

1:05:26could.

1:05:26>> I did that every single night, every

1:05:28single morning, every single midday,

1:05:30every single evening, as much as I

1:05:32could.

1:05:33Um, and then it was about a week a week

1:05:37and a half later that I was in a um

1:05:43in the beginning of a a process group

1:05:46where where

1:05:48uh people come together and they process

1:05:50their emotions and talk about successes

1:05:52and struggles with guided [snorts] by a

1:05:54therapist. And we started with a

1:05:56self-love meditation.

1:05:58And

1:06:00in the process of that meditation, um, I

1:06:05had one of the most vivid visual

1:06:08experiences I've ever had in my life

1:06:10without substances. You know, I was just

1:06:12breathing. I was just finally becoming

1:06:14in tune with myself. And

1:06:17um

1:06:19I was

1:06:21flying through outer space and came up

1:06:24on this really bright light.

1:06:27And you know how when you're driving

1:06:30into a tunnel, you can't really see

1:06:31until you're like in the tunnel. As I

1:06:34got closer, I recognized that it was a

1:06:37beating human heart, like anatomical

1:06:39human heart.

1:06:41And the second that I came into

1:06:43interaction with that, something inside

1:06:45of me just cracked open.

1:06:48And everything that I had been carrying

1:06:51just started to spill out. And it was

1:06:54one of the most life-changing

1:06:55experiences in my life. And that was the

1:06:58moment for me where I was like,

1:07:02"Yeah, I want more of that."

1:07:04>> Mhm. [laughter]

1:07:06>> I want more of that. Um, how can I get

1:07:10more? How can I continue to

1:07:13experience

1:07:15the sensation of loving myself and

1:07:17loving other people

1:07:19um

1:07:21more in my life and

1:07:24that is where the decision was made to

1:07:27officially resign from from the company

1:07:31and

1:07:33take take suggestion and go see what

1:07:36life had in store for me. And so what

1:07:37did it feel like to make that decision

1:07:41given

1:07:42it took 15 years to create the Golden

1:07:46Boy and it also took time to create that

1:07:50moment.

1:07:52>> Yes.

1:07:52>> Like you getting the legal papers and I

1:07:55I want I want to give you a chance to

1:07:56just talk about that a little bit. But

1:07:58like you that moment in Paris having to

1:08:02leave the showing up to legal papers

1:08:04that didn't just happen overnight,

1:08:05right? That's a that's a buildup over

1:08:06time of

1:08:07>> Absolutely.

1:08:08>> of everything happening. And so,

1:08:10>> you know, it's a big decision to leave

1:08:12something that you've worked your whole

1:08:13life towards. Yeah.

1:08:14>> So, [snorts] what was that what was that

1:08:15like for you? [sighs and gasps]

1:08:17>> Again, very complex because

1:08:21the

1:08:24the terror of stepping into life without

1:08:28the thing that you have been working

1:08:30your entire life on. Um

1:08:36it it felt aimless, right? Like what am

1:08:39I going to do?

1:08:41I've done one thing since I was like 8

1:08:44years old. [laughter]

1:08:45And now I'm stepping into life without

1:08:48the security blanket of that, without

1:08:51this identity, without everything that I

1:08:54had built, good or bad.

1:08:57But the other side of that same coin was

1:08:59excitement, was relief.

1:09:02was thank God

1:09:06I

1:09:08am finding a way out of this thing

1:09:11>> and the excitement of

1:09:14listen I'm I'm I'm still in my 20s and I

1:09:17get to I get to figure out what else

1:09:19life has in store for me.

1:09:20>> Mhm. Yeah. I got sober in my 30s and I'm

1:09:23still doing the same. So you don't you

1:09:25don't have to be in your 20s to be like,

1:09:26"Okay, life's not over yet."

1:09:29>> [laughter]

1:09:29>> Well, but but that highlights something

1:09:31super important for dancers.

1:09:33>> Yeah.

1:09:34>> Because just like you you can equate it

1:09:36to to a running back,

1:09:38>> 35 is old.

1:09:40>> Yeah.

1:09:40>> You are you are on your way out.

1:09:42>> Yeah.

1:09:43>> Right. So 27 28 I I was getting to that

1:09:48point already in my career which is wild

1:09:51to think about. Um,

1:09:54which has actually been one of the

1:09:56hardest things for me to let go of in my

1:09:59life is just like this like feeling

1:10:02constantly behind.

1:10:04>> You've let you've let that go.

1:10:05>> I said one of the hardest things.

1:10:07>> Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Yeah. Cuz

1:10:09give me some advice. Yeah. Always

1:10:11catching up. Uh, so I want to just hit

1:10:14on what were the legal papers? What

1:10:16happened? Because I I want to give you a

1:10:17chance to

1:10:19address it. And I have I kind of have a

1:10:21specific question around what happened.

1:10:22There was the group chat. You mentioned

1:10:23the small group of friends that were

1:10:24kind of getting away from you, getting

1:10:26away from and there was this group chat

1:10:28where you shared some photos.

1:10:31>> And so what what happened and what was

1:10:34going through your mind and your heart

1:10:36at the time?

1:10:37>> Yeah. Um

1:10:39Oh man. Um,

1:10:44so

1:10:46the

1:10:51the the group chat again, it was

1:10:54something that was birthed from

1:11:00a group of young men who were

1:11:03undirected, unguided,

1:11:09trying to figure out how to be

1:11:13successful

1:11:15[gasps] in in in in all domains, right?

1:11:19Like based off of what society was

1:11:22telling us was appropriate at the time.

1:11:24And when I say society, I mean our our

1:11:27little bubble that was the the world

1:11:30that we lived in. Um,

1:11:35and so

1:11:38what that turned into was a platform for

1:11:41us to brag to each other about our

1:11:44lives.

1:11:47And that was

1:11:51the

1:11:54that that was the the the

1:11:58judgment lapse

1:12:00for me that I had is just because it was

1:12:04happening around me doesn't make it okay

1:12:06to join in in that. Um, but I did I did

1:12:12and there were intimate photos shared

1:12:16within that that text chain um that

1:12:20group chat. And

1:12:22while I was out of town, uh my

1:12:25girlfriend at the time, she she was in

1:12:28and out of my apartment and um

1:12:32I think was probably using my computer

1:12:35at some point and

1:12:38apparently messages popped up.

1:12:40>> Mhm.

1:12:41um on on the computer attached to to my

1:12:44iMessage and

1:12:47um

1:12:49what I felt was mortified.

1:12:53What I felt was

1:12:56[sighs]

1:12:59more more of the same of

1:13:03what am I what am I doing like what what

1:13:07have I become?

1:13:09Why?

1:13:11Why am I taking part in this kind of

1:13:16behavior that is

1:13:18harmful? Like why why am I doing that?

1:13:22Why am I so desperate

1:13:25to be seen and accepted?

1:13:28Right. It's the same theme.

1:13:29>> Yeah. Why?

1:13:31>> I don't know. [laughter]

1:13:33because it's because it's a a a human

1:13:35need and because I was never actually

1:13:38fulfilling [gasps]

1:13:40the true desire of what I was looking

1:13:43for. I was chasing after

1:13:47braggadocious,

1:13:49fancy, extravagant

1:13:52external things

1:13:55[snorts] as opposed to going on the

1:13:57internal journey

1:14:00that thank God I I've finally been able

1:14:02to go on for the past seven years.

1:14:04>> Yeah. Do you remember sending the

1:14:06photos?

1:14:07>> Um I do. I do.

1:14:10>> What was were you Were you high? Were

1:14:12you drunk? I mean, what was Yeah. Yes.

1:14:14>> Yeah.

1:14:15>> Um

1:14:16the thought in my head was to create

1:14:21jealousy amongst

1:14:23the the the the men that I was speaking

1:14:26to.

1:14:26>> I had zero

1:14:29thought or consideration for another

1:14:31person's feelings.

1:14:35>> Yeah. Zero.

1:14:37And again,

1:14:39that's why my reaction when it when

1:14:43it was found out when I when I was

1:14:44caught

1:14:46was that of just like

1:14:51what what am I doing?

1:14:53>> Mhm.

1:14:54>> Like

1:14:55why why do I why am I having to prove

1:14:58myself to to this group of men?

1:15:02Why?

1:15:03>> Yeah.

1:15:05And

1:15:09>> yeah,

1:15:10>> when I, you know, read about it, heard

1:15:11about it,

1:15:13um, one of the thoughts that I had asked

1:15:16cuz I see a lot of similarities in you

1:15:19and I and

1:15:22desiring acceptance, chasing, you know,

1:15:25high performance.

1:15:28And

1:15:29I also have a habit of self-sabotaging.

1:15:34And I was like, "Oh, that he was his

1:15:38true self hiding underneath the

1:15:41addiction." And this isn't this isn't

1:15:44excusing behavior or anything,

1:15:46>> but his true self was underneath there

1:15:50laying the groundwork as the rip cord to

1:15:53get out of the situation that he didn't

1:15:54want to be in. I love the way that you

1:15:56said that because I do in hindsight

1:16:00I do now see that everything was

1:16:04constructed

1:16:06perfectly for me to get out of that

1:16:09situation and not only to get out of the

1:16:13situation but to be the living example

1:16:18that things need to change.

1:16:21>> Yeah. things need to change

1:16:23>> and you had to live that through the

1:16:26pain and unfortunately other people

1:16:28experiencing the pain that comes along

1:16:31with that.

1:16:31>> Yeah.

1:16:32>> But would it have been as effective?

1:16:34Would you now be leading this life

1:16:37and able to change other people's lives

1:16:39and help other people had you gone

1:16:40through that?

1:16:40>> Absolutely not.

1:16:41>> Yeah. And it's and it's really

1:16:42unfortunate. It really is. Yeah.

1:16:44>> Yeah. And there's reasons, but

1:16:48like there's reasons why you did it.

1:16:49Like I hear that and I don't I don't

1:16:51think you're I don't sense, you know,

1:16:53victim. I don't sense it was done to me

1:16:55or it's because of all these things.

1:16:57There are contributing factors to the

1:16:59environments that you're in.

1:17:00>> No, I I I was the perpetrator

1:17:03>> 100%. and and and

1:17:06all I can do about that is

1:17:10take my own responsibility to heal the

1:17:13parts of myself that produce that kind

1:17:17of action and behavior that is

1:17:19completely out of alignment with my

1:17:21morals, values and and and true self.

1:17:27And then to ensure that doesn't happen

1:17:29in the future.

1:17:30>> Yeah.

1:17:30>> Is to to do something about it.

1:17:32>> Yeah. to to to

1:17:35inform doing what we're doing right now

1:17:38to inform the world of what things do

1:17:40look like, what's possible, and why the

1:17:44change needs to be there.

1:17:45>> But then there's then there's like the

1:17:48cancel culture piece of this cuz if you

1:17:51go on Reddit, you go on these video,

1:17:53like

1:17:54>> people people still hate you.

1:17:56>> Yeah.

1:17:56>> Right. And so what do you what do you

1:17:58say to people that hate you or cancel

1:18:01culture? or like what's your experience

1:18:02with that?

1:18:03>> What do I say and what's my experience?

1:18:10>> Ready for it?

1:18:11>> Yeah.

1:18:13What do I say is that I'm sorry

1:18:17that

1:18:26there isn't enough

1:18:28capacity in this world to

1:18:33for second chances.

1:18:40And my experience in that wash

1:18:46man it was I mean again like I don't I

1:18:51really try not to fall into any like

1:18:53sense of of victimhood but it but there

1:18:56was a devastation about it and again

1:18:58it's not it's not because it's not I'm

1:19:00not talking about the people who

1:19:03I don't know and don't know me. I'm

1:19:05talking about a lot of the people who

1:19:07did know me

1:19:10and my hope with the people who did know

1:19:13me, right? Because there's a lot of

1:19:17people who knew me throughout my life

1:19:19who have come to me and be like, I I

1:19:23know who you are underneath all that and

1:19:25I'm going to give you a chance to prove

1:19:26it. But there were a lot of people who

1:19:29did know me that looked at a headline

1:19:32and said this is who he is now

1:19:34>> forever now to the point of the end end

1:19:38of time you are going to be this guy

1:19:42and

1:19:44those were people who

1:19:48I had built relationships with. Those

1:19:49are people who would sit in the audience

1:19:52and and and and come and pay good money

1:19:55to come see me perform my craft, right?

1:19:59And so there was a lot of sadness about

1:20:01that. Um there was [clears throat]

1:20:03grief, there was loss that I felt like I

1:20:06had to let myself feel and experience

1:20:09and take ownership of. Um, and

1:20:14my hope is that

1:20:18they find it in their heart to be able

1:20:20to accept me again.

1:20:23>> Acceptance.

1:20:25>> There there's that magical word.

1:20:26>> Yeah.

1:20:27>> Yeah.

1:20:28>> Yeah. And as I've started this podcast,

1:20:31I've really leaned into

1:20:34discovering the both and. And both both

1:20:39things can be true. It doesn't make it

1:20:40right. Both things can be true. And man,

1:20:44if I got if I got banished into a cold,

1:20:49quiet, isolated cell for things that I

1:20:52did in my 20s,

1:20:54like what a waste versus what what's

1:20:57possible. Like you said, you can't

1:20:59change it. Um it doesn't doesn't you

1:21:02know, people don't have to forget. They

1:21:03don't have to

1:21:04>> I wish I hadn't done it.

1:21:06>> Yeah. Exactly. I so wish I hadn't done

1:21:07it.

1:21:08>> Yeah. Yeah. Right.

1:21:10Yeah,

1:21:11cool. Thank you. Moving on. [laughter]

1:21:14>> Well, I just, you know, I it deserves

1:21:16its own time and space and I also don't

1:21:18want to to dwell on it. Um, and so got

1:21:23sober and now you're you're helping men,

1:21:27right?

1:21:28>> Yes. Um,

1:21:30>> yes. Men and women.

1:21:32>> Men and women.

1:21:33>> Yes. Yes.

1:21:33>> Um, yes. I am uh

1:21:38you know I

1:21:40I've been I've been working in the in

1:21:42the recovery industry for the past seven

1:21:44years. Um

1:21:47various jobs at first kind of how people

1:21:49do to find themselves within the the the

1:21:52helping people world. Um but eventually

1:21:55went back to school, became a licensed

1:21:57clinician and started to uh carry my own

1:22:01case load

1:22:02about I guess it's 4 years ago now. Um a

1:22:07good friend of mine um he reached out to

1:22:10me and asked me to help build uh a

1:22:13treatment center in South Austin. And so

1:22:16I joined forces with him and and another

1:22:20good friend of mine, Nick Borgess, and

1:22:22we uh created what is now Hartwood

1:22:24Recovery Center. I was the lead

1:22:26clinician there for three three and a

1:22:28half years. And

1:22:33as of about sevenish months ago, I

1:22:37decided to step out into my

1:22:41entrepreneurial life. um starting with

1:22:44private practice, seeing clients

1:22:46one-on-one, mainly men, but also women.

1:22:50[snorts] Um and that's that's been my

1:22:52practice of continuing to

1:22:56help others from a clinical capacity. Uh

1:23:00mainly with substance abuse and trauma.

1:23:04Obviously, there's kind of always

1:23:06co-occurring mental mental health

1:23:08disorders going on there as well, but um

1:23:11it's mainly substance abuse and trauma.

1:23:14Um but recently, I went through a

1:23:19personal development and leadership

1:23:20course and

1:23:23I recognized cuz this this actually ties

1:23:27into the cancel culture. um everything

1:23:31that that happened there is I'd been I'd

1:23:34been hiding from my purpose [snorts]

1:23:37cuz I believe and I see clearly now that

1:23:41I had my dance career. I had my

1:23:45collapse. I had my fall.

1:23:49I had my time in recovery. I had my time

1:23:52to learn clinical modalities and how to

1:23:55work with human beings in order to get

1:23:58to the point where I come full circle to

1:24:01serve that world.

1:24:03And that is something that I had been

1:24:06really really terrified to circle back

1:24:10to because of

1:24:13judgment, social perception. What will

1:24:16people think? Are they going to reject

1:24:17me because of

1:24:20the mistake that I made in my life?

1:24:22>> Yeah. And so, how did you get over that?

1:24:26Because like you're basically breaking

1:24:28your silence. Like this is

1:24:29>> here we are.

1:24:30>> Here we are. This is, you know, dine,

1:24:33you know, vice news. Like this is the

1:24:34expose. But like you, you know, you

1:24:37didn't

1:24:38>> Yeah. You were hiding for

1:24:39>> Yeah.

1:24:40>> And not not you know, I'm not

1:24:41criticizing, but like just

1:24:43>> this is the first time you're really

1:24:44coming out and talking about this stuff.

1:24:46And so,

1:24:47>> how did you how did you decide to step

1:24:50forward and step into your purpose?

1:24:53>> I didn't do it alone, that's for sure.

1:24:56Um,

1:24:58someone came into my life and she was

1:25:01able to see

1:25:04what I couldn't see in myself or that I

1:25:06had been really afraid to see in myself.

1:25:10I think that's that that's that's a

1:25:12better uh way to put it there. Um, but

1:25:16she saw that I was living

1:25:19only a fraction of my potential. And so

1:25:23with her support and with her guidance

1:25:25and with her encouragement and with her

1:25:28push,

1:25:30um,

1:25:32I took the leap that was necessary. I

1:25:35did. I It was It was It was merely just

1:25:39fear that was holding me back. a

1:25:42sensation within my body that I was

1:25:46allowing to keep me small, to keep me

1:25:50from from this this this full circle

1:25:53moment of

1:25:56living all sides of the professional

1:26:00dance career so that I could gather the

1:26:03right evidence to be able to come back

1:26:06to it and elicit the change that's

1:26:07necessary. Um,

1:26:11so yeah, I mean it was a testament of

1:26:15one person seeing me,

1:26:17then putting me into the right community

1:26:21that also fully saw me and supported me

1:26:25and pushed me and encouraged me to

1:26:29remember

1:26:31who I am,

1:26:33to remember that

1:26:38I didn't

1:26:41I didn't get into ballet to become the

1:26:43golden boy. I got into ballet to express

1:26:46myself. I got into ballet to be free. I

1:26:51got into ballet to exercise my

1:26:54authenticity. And it was only as I lost

1:26:58that along the way did things start to

1:27:02become

1:27:05hard.

1:27:07like like heavy. Um,

1:27:11and so this process of kind of sifting

1:27:15through the things that I'd accumulated

1:27:18over time to really rediscover my

1:27:21authenticity

1:27:23allowed me to have the lightness and the

1:27:25freess to step step through that fear

1:27:28that I had been hiding behind for seven

1:27:31years. You know, I I left treatment

1:27:33saying there needs to be a change to

1:27:36this world.

1:27:37Like I'm now realizing it from this

1:27:41place of clarity

1:27:43that

1:27:45yes, I [ __ ] up. Yes, I made a mistake.

1:27:49Yes, there were probably a lot more

1:27:53mistakes that were made along the way,

1:27:54too, that didn't end up being in the

1:27:57newspaper or in the news.

1:28:01But

1:28:03there needs to be change that happens in

1:28:06that world. And if I'm too busy staying

1:28:10safe and playing small and not facing my

1:28:15fears, facing the so-called demons that

1:28:18I thought I was up against,

1:28:21then nothing's going to change.

1:28:23There's just like there's so many

1:28:25parallels between

1:28:27your journey, my journey,

1:28:30the fears that come with the

1:28:32responsibility. You mentioned it when

1:28:34you found out you became the golden boy

1:28:37and the shoes that you were going to

1:28:38have to fill, the fear of responsibility

1:28:41of being that person, living up to

1:28:43expectations. And so what's different

1:28:46now

1:28:47of taking this on and helping people

1:28:50being the man, the example, the leader,

1:28:55not being afraid to stand up and face

1:28:59whatever consequences might come? What's

1:29:01different now

1:29:02that you're able to

1:29:05not fear the responsibility?

1:29:06>> Man, there's a part of that question

1:29:08that makes me sad. And the reason why

1:29:12there's

1:29:14less pressure, like less less

1:29:17comparison, is because it doesn't exist.

1:29:22The mission that I'm that I'm here to

1:29:26create, it it's it's not happening right

1:29:28now.

1:29:30>> Right? There are there are small tweaks

1:29:33that are being made and and I'm not just

1:29:34talking about ballet. I'm talking about

1:29:37in sports and in acting and in in in in

1:29:40people's musical careers and in the

1:29:41arts. It's it's it's

1:29:46because people are in an industry in

1:29:49which they have to use their physical

1:29:51body to perform.

1:29:56The body becomes

1:29:58the performance.

1:30:00The body doesn't remain the body. the

1:30:01body is no longer a thing to be nurtured

1:30:04and cared for because the body is now

1:30:07the performance.

1:30:08>> So, as long as you're performing again

1:30:11to the the top quality,

1:30:15there's there there's there's nobody

1:30:17there to really check on like, hey,

1:30:18how's your how's your mental state?

1:30:21How's your emotional state? How are your

1:30:23relationships? Do you have stress about

1:30:26like how to manage your finances? you

1:30:29know, [laughter]

1:30:31especially when you are thrust into that

1:30:33at

1:30:35the ripe old age of 17, you know, um

1:30:39how do I feel about stepping into that?

1:30:43I mean, yeah, it's a huge

1:30:45responsibility. Um

1:30:49but man, I've got everything it takes.

1:30:51[laughter] I do. I mean, I've lived it.

1:30:53Mhm.

1:30:54>> I've I've I've I've

1:30:57now been on

1:30:59all three sides. I've looked up to

1:31:02people. I've been in their shoes. And

1:31:06now I'm on the other side of things

1:31:09compiling

1:31:12all the skills and all of the

1:31:16um

1:31:18the tools and the community to help you

1:31:21know come at this thing like a freaking

1:31:24army that it deserves to have at its

1:31:26back.

1:31:26>> And so what's like the main thing that

1:31:28stands in the way? I love your analogy

1:31:30of the body is the performance because I

1:31:33my question is like okay then what

1:31:35happens to the heart? What happens to

1:31:36the mind? What happens to the soul if

1:31:38it's not being cared for in the same way

1:31:40that the body is? Yeah. Um it has no

1:31:43choice but to become tethered with the

1:31:45performance as well. Right. Right. If if

1:31:47I'm if consciousness is not being

1:31:53treated as consciousness, something that

1:31:56is separate from the performance,

1:31:58something that's separate from the body,

1:32:00if the heart isn't being nurtured

1:32:02properly, if the mind isn't being

1:32:06um

1:32:08taught the proper skills, um

1:32:13perspective switches, the ability to

1:32:16become more cognitively flexible, right?

1:32:19There's you're you're just left to your

1:32:21own devices and eventually if your body

1:32:23is being expected to do something over

1:32:25and over and over again, the rest of the

1:32:27system is going to go with it.

1:32:29>> What are the modalities or the things

1:32:30that you

1:32:33do to prepare or support athletes, kids,

1:32:38teens, high performers, men?

1:32:40>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, a lot of it is

1:32:44around rediscovering what their specific

1:32:48values are. Um, and not not necessarily

1:32:51in in terms of just like, hey, we've got

1:32:54one list of values and that's going to

1:32:57be repetitive throughout your entire

1:32:59life in every single domain. A lot of

1:33:01the times there's there are inherent

1:33:05core values in relationships and they're

1:33:07in your line of work and then they're in

1:33:10your leisure time and in your hobbies

1:33:14and right so it's it's about really

1:33:16crafting an individualized

1:33:19program to meet this individualized

1:33:22human being. But but the some of the

1:33:26modalities that I personally like to use

1:33:28are acceptance and commitment therapy,

1:33:30which is really about creating cognitive

1:33:33flexibility, which keeps you from fusing

1:33:36with

1:33:37the uh the disturbing or the

1:33:42dissatisfying thought or emotion. Um,

1:33:46and then neurallinginguistic programming

1:33:48is it's it's really just how can how can

1:33:50we use the mind and our emotions to

1:33:52create new perspective switches

1:33:56about the the single track programming

1:33:59that our mind has been on

1:34:02because we've been in this state of

1:34:04performance which has become a state of

1:34:07survival.

1:34:09>> And so talk more about NLP because I've

1:34:11heard of it tangentially. Is it just

1:34:14reprogramming the way that you speak

1:34:15about yourself or or

1:34:17>> It's it's reprogramming the way that you

1:34:20speak about yourself so that that

1:34:22eventually starts to produce itself

1:34:25within your actions as well.

1:34:26>> Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because thoughts

1:34:30lead to feelings lead to actions, but

1:34:32the way that you speak about yourself

1:34:33also dictates and

1:34:35>> and what you believe about yourself.

1:34:37>> Yes.

1:34:38>> Right. the the belief creates the way

1:34:41that you speak to yourself, creates the

1:34:43feelings that you have for yourself,

1:34:45creates the actions that you take,

1:34:46creates the consequences in your life.

1:34:49And do we want to create positive

1:34:52consequences or do we want to create

1:34:53negative consequences?

1:34:54>> Yeah.

1:34:55>> And that's that's that's the guidance

1:34:58that's that's so needed.

1:35:00>> Yeah. You're a result of your most

1:35:01dominant thoughts, right? Yeah. Because

1:35:05if those are the permeating and

1:35:06pervasive thoughts that are always

1:35:07there, then your your actions are going

1:35:09to be a result of those thoughts.

1:35:12>> Yeah. You put some and you put somebody

1:35:14in in a pressure cooker where they're in

1:35:17the spotlight constantly. They have to

1:35:19keep

1:35:21substance abuse hidden from everyone.

1:35:24they have to keep,

1:35:26you know, I I I remember having injuries

1:35:30throughout my career and it was kind of

1:35:33like, okay, just like just go over there

1:35:35and just like stay on the sideline.

1:35:38[laughter]

1:35:38>> Yeah.

1:35:39>> Because like, you know, you're you're

1:35:41not useful right now.

1:35:42>> Yeah. You're kicked out of the tribe,

1:35:43>> right?

1:35:44>> Yeah.

1:35:44>> Right.

1:35:45>> You would have been put down, left

1:35:46behind,

1:35:47>> right? Exactly.

1:35:48>> Yeah.

1:35:48>> Yeah. Because you're out of the tribe.

1:35:50>> Yeah.

1:35:50>> Yeah. I teach um in my community and

1:35:53just in my content I teach um I say

1:35:57write it down and speak it out loud

1:35:59>> and I have a specific way of journaling

1:36:00that helped me rewire everything was the

1:36:03basis I did it every day for a year and

1:36:05more I still do it not as often I am I

1:36:08have statements describing myself as if

1:36:12everything's already happened describing

1:36:13my future self as if everything's

1:36:14already happened but it's also

1:36:15affirmations it's it can vary day by day

1:36:18depending on it could be material things

1:36:19it could be mindset it could

1:36:21goals, dreams, whatever. And then I

1:36:24speak it out loud. I say these things

1:36:26out loud because when you say I am, I

1:36:27have I I am the best podcaster in the

1:36:30world. I have, you know, a million

1:36:32subscribers on YouTube or whatever the

1:36:33things are or I am a light I need to

1:36:35shine. That was actually one that I that

1:36:37I that I went to quite a bit um because

1:36:39I felt like I had dimmed my light. But

1:36:42when you write it down and you speak it

1:36:44out loud, you start to rewire like your

1:36:46programming like and you start to begin

1:36:48acting differently. So

1:36:49>> yeah. And it's almost like the the law

1:36:51of manifestation but at the same time

1:36:54making it real in the present moment.

1:36:55>> Yeah. Manifestation is real if you act

1:36:57on it,

1:36:57>> right?

1:36:58>> Yes. There's there's things that will

1:36:59show up in your life that you're like,

1:37:00"How'd that happen?" Right? Like I'm

1:37:01experiencing that. Like things show up,

1:37:03but it's because you're putting that

1:37:05energy out there and you're taking

1:37:06actions and you're you're impacting

1:37:07other people and it gets back, right? It

1:37:09gets back to you. So the the surprises

1:37:11are a reflection of all the effort and

1:37:14the work and the actions that you've

1:37:15taken towards what you want, right?

1:37:16>> Totally. Yeah.

1:37:17>> Alignment.

1:37:18>> Alignment. There you go, Chase.

1:37:22I heard I didn't know this, but I heard

1:37:24that I heard that every dancer has a

1:37:27final dance.

1:37:30You didn't get yours.

1:37:31>> I did not.

1:37:34What are you going to do about that?

1:37:36>> Oh, man. [sighs] Um,

1:37:41yeah, that that that has that has been

1:37:43probably the hardest

1:37:46hardest part to swallow for me. Um

1:37:49[clears throat]

1:37:50because there is this moment of of being

1:37:53able to be celebrated um for the

1:38:00for just for the career that you had. Um

1:38:04but man, it's not about me. [laughter]

1:38:08It is not about me. Um

1:38:12I don't need a final performance.

1:38:17What I need is to create impact and to

1:38:22leave a legacy knowing

1:38:25that

1:38:27everybody who has a final performance

1:38:30isn't doing it with this exhale of

1:38:32finally of thank god of oh my body hurts

1:38:36so bad of

1:38:40or the inverse of what the hell do I do

1:38:43now? My life is over. Right.

1:38:48And so as yes, as devastating as it was,

1:38:52it again, I've been on this journey for

1:38:557 years of being able to have an

1:38:59internal experience

1:39:01with what I think I want in the external

1:39:04world.

1:39:06And so,

1:39:08sure, as as much as it would have been

1:39:11nice to have the recognition and to have

1:39:13all the, you know, the flowers thrown in

1:39:15my direction,

1:39:20the the metaphor that I want to that I

1:39:23want to create is like I get to have the

1:39:26flowers and the applause every single

1:39:28day as I impact other people's lives.

1:39:32So, it's not about one moment. It's

1:39:34about how do I have the same internal

1:39:36experience that I would have had in my

1:39:39retirement performance every single day.

1:39:43And for me, that's creating change. That

1:39:47is creating healing. That is

1:39:53being a stand for a system that has been

1:39:55broken for hundreds of years.

1:39:58Plain and simple.

1:39:59>> I really appreciate you being here

1:40:00today. I appreciate your candid your

1:40:02candidness, your honesty,

1:40:04>> uh being willing to speak and showing

1:40:06up. Um, I know that you you're creating

1:40:10a new life here in Austin, sharing it

1:40:12with someone a couple really special

1:40:14people and um,

1:40:19I've got to know you and I'm just

1:40:22excited for what you're going to be able

1:40:23to create and the lives that you're

1:40:24going to be able to impact and how much

1:40:26change you're going to be able to create

1:40:28for people despite things that have

1:40:29happened in the past. So, thank you.

1:40:31>> Thank you for being here, Chase. As

1:40:33always, everybody, this has been for

1:40:34your own good. I appreciate you. I love

1:40:37you. Thank you so much. Peace.

The systems behind these conversations — the deal underwriting, the tax strategy, the operators doing it live — are in Escape Velocity.

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