How We Built the World's Biggest Podcast | Will Perez & Anthony Smith

Episode 113 · May 14, 2026 · 1h 50m

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About this episode

What does it actually take to build the world's biggest podcast from the inside? In this episode, I sit down with the two people behind Diary of a CEO — the editor who took the channel from 300,000 to 16 million subscribers and the lead filmmaker behind Steven Bartlett's personal brand. These are the people who were drilling mirrors into walls at 2am, dropping out of university on a Friday to be in London by Wednesday, and making a new trailer every two and a half days — all while most people had no idea they even existed. We go deep on everything. The real struggles behind building something this big. The lessons Steven Bartlett taught them on day one that changed how they work forever. The three hat framework every creator needs to understand. Why impatience is the biggest disease of our time. How human psychology drives every click, every view, every decision they make. What really happened the night MrBeast walked into the studio at 3am. And why hitting 100,000 subscribers felt like absolutely nothing. This is the episode for anyone building something — a podcast, a brand, a team, a business — who wants to understand what the process really looks like before the podium arrives. Sixth Summit: Join the waitlist at ⁠sixthsummit.io/hackathon⁠ and use the code FYOG Lodgify: Offering 20% off any of there yearly or bi-yearly plans until the end of July, using the code FYOG20 ⁠here⁠ #KassidyWarren https://www.instagram.com/kassidy.warren https://www.linkedin.com/in/kassidywarren #AnthonySmith https://www.instagram.com/anthonyr.smith/ #WillPerez https://www.instagram.com/btswithwill/ Watch #ForYourOwnGood on YouTube : https://www.youtube.com/@KassidyWarren

Key moments

0:00:00 “The second thing, every single project you do, I want you to try and make it...”
0:07:38 “Technically uh one of the biggest personal well one of the biggest technical challenges was the...”
0:13:33 “the second thing, every single project you do, I want you to try and make it...”
0:15:14 “then the second part, which is the 1% better every day, is it's naturally just going...”
0:21:11 “when you combine that sequence of events, you arrive in a warehouse office in shortage unsure...”
0:28:46 “you seem pretty set on the fact that I'd still do this if it took 10...”
0:36:21 “This is actually imported from Japan from a conser conservation forest." And your grandfather is a...”
0:49:04 “appeal, then no one's going to even look at it.”

Read the full transcript

Auto-generated from the episode captions; may contain small errors.

0:00:00I've played a role in creating one of

0:00:02the fastest growing podcasts in the

0:00:05world. Thankfully, not many people are

0:00:06able to say that.

0:00:07>> This guy was drilling mirrors into the

0:00:10wall at 2:00 a.m. trying to build the

0:00:11[music] Diary of a CEO set.

0:00:13>> When you joined Diary CEO, there was

0:00:15300,000 subscribers on YouTube. [music]

0:00:17You're at 16 million. You two are player

0:00:20A and player B on the largest podcast in

0:00:23the world.

0:00:23>> If I watch back the first [music] trade

0:00:25I produced, I [ __ ] hate it. People

0:00:27forget at the podium that the process

0:00:29was an absolute slo.

0:00:30>> The best thing that Steve said to me was

0:00:35on [music] my first day, two things.

0:00:37One, I don't want you to watch any other

0:00:39podcast. The second thing, every single

0:00:42project you do, I want you to try and

0:00:44make it 1% better [music] every single

0:00:46time. Wouldn't it be a shame if you

0:00:48spent so much time on this podcast, if

0:00:51you put all this pre-production [music]

0:00:52together and then because you chose the

0:00:54wrong title, no one watches? The most

0:00:55inspiring thing we could show you

0:00:56[music] is the backend analytics graph

0:00:59of the diver CEO for the first three

0:01:00years.

0:01:01>> How much of Steven's leadership is

0:01:03ingrained in how you run your team?

0:01:04[music]

0:01:05The biggest thing he's enforced onto all

0:01:07of us is that you just have to [music]

0:01:10care so much.

0:01:12>> One of the things that Steve said to me

0:01:14that has stuck with me for such a long

0:01:15[music] time, she said, "Will, you need

0:01:17to be short-term impatient and long-term

0:01:20patient."

0:01:20>> Three [music] metaphorical hats is

0:01:22something that every single content

0:01:24creator needs. You have your top hat.

0:01:25That's your first hat and that's your

0:01:27storytelling hat. Then you have this

0:01:28second hat and [music] that's what I

0:01:30call your marketing hat.

0:01:31>> So, who wins? The top hat, the marketing

0:01:33hat, or the data hat?

0:01:35>> No one wins.

0:01:37>> Thank you both for being here. Aunt,

0:01:39when you joined Diver CEO, there was

0:01:43300,000 subscribers on YouTube. I think

0:01:46you're at 16 million.

0:01:48>> Yes.

0:01:49>> And like 6 million in the last like

0:01:51year, [laughter] right? It's gone. It's

0:01:53gone parabolic. [snorts]

0:01:53>> Yeah. The compound growth has been

0:01:54insane.

0:01:55>> Yes. And then Will, you quit college.

0:02:00>> Yes.

0:02:00>> To join Diver CEO. You started Behind

0:02:02the Diary, which I think is one of the

0:02:04most valuable pieces of content on the

0:02:05internet. I watch every single episode.

0:02:07>> Thank you.

0:02:07>> And you took that from 0 to 400,000

0:02:09subscribers. And you're the lead

0:02:11filmmaker, videographer for Steven, uh,

0:02:14and everything that he's doing in his

0:02:15personal brand. So you two are

0:02:17essentially player A and player B on

0:02:20[laughter] the biggest personal brand in

0:02:21the world, the largest podcasts in the

0:02:23world, and are one of the main reasons

0:02:26why the podcast has gained so much

0:02:29success. So I want to understand from

0:02:31your guys's perspective,

0:02:34what it's been like for you, what you've

0:02:36learned, how you've grown, the things

0:02:38that you've implemented into building

0:02:40this thing with Stephen and with the

0:02:42rest of your team.

0:02:43>> 100%. I mean, I think this is going to

0:02:44be a bit of a deep dive on from your

0:02:47perspective all things editing, all

0:02:48things storytelling, and I'll touch on

0:02:50that as well, but also from the

0:02:51perspective of entrepreneurship as well.

0:02:53What have we seen from working with an

0:02:54entrepreneur like Steven on time, on

0:02:57prioritization, on leadership? Uh, I'm

0:03:00super excited to jump in and thank you

0:03:01for having me as well.

0:03:02>> The craziest thing about this whole

0:03:04journey is that how unlinear it's

0:03:07actually been. And I think one of the

0:03:09biggest lessons that I've learned

0:03:10through this whole process is

0:03:14when we grow up, we sort of have these

0:03:18these lessons that are taught to us

0:03:20whether we like it or not, that you need

0:03:22to follow certain paths, that you need

0:03:23to do certain things to be successful,

0:03:25right? And ultimately the biggest lesson

0:03:28that I've learned and now what I try to

0:03:32give to other editors and other

0:03:33storytellers and other content creators

0:03:35is this idea that if you have a passion,

0:03:38if you follow that passion and if you

0:03:41care so much about the thing that you

0:03:43love to do, that path naturally forms

0:03:46its way and that path may be rocky at

0:03:48times. You may need a machete to cut

0:03:50down a few trees, but ultimately when

0:03:53you look back, all you see is just this

0:03:55smooth path and that's what everyone

0:03:57else sees. But then you look straight

0:03:58forward ahead and you should still see

0:04:01the woodlands, the mountains, the lakes

0:04:03that you have to cross. And so I think

0:04:05for me that's been the biggest lesson is

0:04:07that nothing I've ever done has led me

0:04:11here on purpose. It's all been like

0:04:15several accidents and several decisions

0:04:18that I've made that I thought, okay,

0:04:20I'll give that a go. And ultimately now

0:04:24it's led me to a position where I can

0:04:26say I've played a role in creating one

0:04:29of the fastest growing podcasts in the

0:04:32world. And thankfully, not many people

0:04:35are able to say that. And now it's our

0:04:37jobs and our duty to actually push this

0:04:40knowledge and the lessons and the

0:04:42failures that we've made to everyone

0:04:44else so that they can achieve their own

0:04:46goals. Whether it's in podcasting,

0:04:48whether it's just in content creation,

0:04:49whether it's growing a team, whether

0:04:50it's leadership, whether it's how you

0:04:52set out your personal brand. And so that

0:04:54we see that as our duty now.

0:04:56>> But when you look back at those early

0:04:58days, right, it was a [ __ ] mess. And

0:05:01I think this is the part that people

0:05:03don't understand. We can sit here now,

0:05:06you having grown the podcast with the

0:05:08rest of the team to 16 mil, the second

0:05:11biggest podcast in the world. And we can

0:05:13look back now and be like, man, isn't

0:05:16that a crazy ride? But at that point in

0:05:18time when you start, it was such a mess.

0:05:20I mean, you were you were building the

0:05:22podcast sets with Jack.

0:05:24>> Yeah.

0:05:24>> This guy was drilling mirrors into the

0:05:26wall at 2:00 a.m. trying to build the

0:05:29diary of a CEO set. And I think people

0:05:30forget people forget at the podium that

0:05:32the process was an absolute slog. You

0:05:35forget on mile 30 how you felt on mile

0:05:3712. And uh I think I'd like to kind of

0:05:40dive into all of that because I truly

0:05:42believe that the process is the podium,

0:05:43you know, and I we've definitely seen

0:05:45that. And I'm I'm still experiencing

0:05:46that. You're way further along than me,

0:05:48but I'm still in the I'm still with the

0:05:50machete.

0:05:51>> I've only known you well for like 30

0:05:52seconds, but you're very humble and you

0:05:55give people credit where credit's due,

0:05:56so I appreciate that. Uh, and since

0:05:59starting this podcast just like 14

0:06:02months ago, recognizing how difficult it

0:06:05truly is to keep putting an episode out

0:06:07and then the distractions and the things

0:06:09that come up with running teams, it's

0:06:11real. And there's there's been surprise

0:06:13and delight in all these moments around

0:06:14every single corner. Uh, and I'm so

0:06:16grateful and I'm going to continue to

0:06:17grow and that's part of the fun, right?

0:06:19But some people look for perfection in

0:06:22what they're doing and that stops them

0:06:24from even getting started.

0:06:26I do want to hear more about like the

0:06:28the growth phase uh and will like where

0:06:32was the the the struggle moments for you

0:06:35in building this whole thing. What was

0:06:37difficult for you behind the scenes?

0:06:39>> I'm going to split it into three

0:06:40sections. The first one is personally,

0:06:43the second's technically, and then the

0:06:45third is a bit more of like a developed

0:06:46piece about leadership. Personally, it

0:06:48was really tough to jump into this role.

0:06:51I dropped out of university at 21. On

0:06:54the Friday, I got the job. By the next

0:06:55Wednesday, I dropped out of university.

0:06:58And by the next Friday, I was in London

0:07:00taking the job with Steve. And you put a

0:07:0221-year-old with no experience with

0:07:05YouTube in an office with some of the

0:07:07most exceptional editors, creatives,

0:07:09investors in the world.

0:07:12And he's going to feel three things.

0:07:14Terrified, scared, and like an imposter.

0:07:16So, for me personally, at that starting

0:07:18point, I felt that was really tricky.

0:07:21And also working alongside someone who I

0:07:23didn't know. I didn't know Steve at the

0:07:24start. And you are thrust into this

0:07:26world of seven days a week, you're on

0:07:27the road, you're filming. There's a

0:07:29really interesting

0:07:31arc that happens in your relationship

0:07:32with working with someone. And one of

0:07:33the things that Steve said to me uh that

0:07:35has stuck with me for such a long time

0:07:38was

0:07:40we were in the car in LA and we were

0:07:42driving and we film everything, right?

0:07:44And sometimes you don't want to be in

0:07:46the way. You feel like maybe this isn't

0:07:47the right moment. So there's like a bit

0:07:48of a dance. And I said to him, I was

0:07:50like, "Steve, can I ask you a question?"

0:07:52I said, "If you don't want me to film,

0:07:54will you promise you'll tell me? Will

0:07:56you promise you'll just look at me and

0:07:57you'll tell me?" And we've actually

0:07:58developed a secret hand signal now. And

0:08:00he said, "Yeah, of course." And it

0:08:02instantly was this instant moment of

0:08:03like connection, trust. If he doesn't

0:08:05want me there, he's going to say, and as

0:08:06a result of that, we almost now move

0:08:08kind of like in autonomously together

0:08:11through work. Technically uh one of the

0:08:14biggest personal well one of the biggest

0:08:15technical challenges was the idea that

0:08:18the difficult thing we do is the

0:08:20difficult thing that no one else is

0:08:21going to do. We always say to the team

0:08:22in behind the diary like if it's

0:08:24difficult it's our moat. So we will be

0:08:26obsessed with making an edit as like

0:08:28technically perfect as possible as

0:08:30obsessed about making the animation

0:08:32typography just a slight bit better. So

0:08:34technically uh it's difficult to

0:08:36maintain that standard. And then the

0:08:37third one is just uh watching something

0:08:40grow as a leader and understanding that

0:08:43letting go is the thing you need to do

0:08:45to let it grow. Um for me has been a

0:08:47really interesting arc to be on because

0:08:50you build this thing. It's your baby.

0:08:51You learn how to how to scale it and

0:08:53then new people come in and you have to

0:08:55learn how to see that as an opportunity

0:08:56not as a threat. So those are the kind

0:08:58of three areas that I feel like I've

0:09:00grown in over the last three years. Uh

0:09:02like as a topline. Yeah. I'm sure you've

0:09:05seen a similar case with DOAC. Yeah,

0:09:07100%. I mean, especially on that last

0:09:08point, the the struggle to let go and

0:09:12it's um

0:09:15when at the start all you want to do is

0:09:17build a team and then you get the team

0:09:20and then you panic because it's no

0:09:24longer your thing. It's at least now

0:09:27four people's thing. And so a a big part

0:09:31of you sort of there there's a little

0:09:33bit of a grieving process here because

0:09:36you have to let go of the thing that

0:09:37you've worked so hard for that you've

0:09:40poured metaphorical blood, sweat, and

0:09:42physical tears into a struggle every

0:09:45single leader has to face. And it's such

0:09:48a beautiful thing to face because once

0:09:49you get over that and once you become

0:09:52accustomed to it and once you embrace

0:09:54it, what you actually end up with is

0:09:57this whole new forward way of thinking

0:10:00of how can we improve it even further?

0:10:02How can we do these experiments? How can

0:10:04we build it and keep pushing the

0:10:07boundaries? but also you can just look

0:10:09at this little team that you've built

0:10:11with so much pride knowing that they're

0:10:15ready to take this on for themselves.

0:10:18And it's it's this weird thing of

0:10:22my goal was always weirdly to make

0:10:24myself obsolete.

0:10:27And especially where I grew up and with

0:10:30the family that I have where the goal

0:10:32was to get certain grades, use those

0:10:34grades to get a job as young as you can

0:10:36and then that 9 to5 will pay for you and

0:10:38your family. Um and the biggest thing

0:10:42you do want to do is make yourself so

0:10:44valuable that they can never let you go.

0:10:46And so when I when I told my dad that my

0:10:49job is to make myself obsolete, he was

0:10:52like, "Listen to yourself here. You're

0:10:54you're you're [ __ ] yourself up in

0:10:57this career right now." Because if you

0:10:59make yourself obsolete, who's going to

0:11:01who's going to go to you? Like they can

0:11:02get rid of you? They can. And it's like,

0:11:04well, yeah, because that that a that

0:11:08gives me the tenacity to want to keep

0:11:10pushing the boundaries for myself and to

0:11:11keep learning and to make myself useful

0:11:13and valuable. But B, it's like if I hold

0:11:16on to it, it's going to be me making

0:11:18these things twice a week, working

0:11:21unbelievable amount of hours, not

0:11:23getting much sleep, not seeing much of

0:11:25my friends and my family. And that's

0:11:27going to lead down a path that I

0:11:29definitely don't want. And so that I

0:11:32think was one of the biggest struggles

0:11:34is

0:11:36being okay with this idea that you're

0:11:39building more of you, I guess. And also

0:11:43being okay with the fact that when

0:11:45they're ready and when they're really

0:11:47that's when you've really done your job

0:11:49is the fact that you can take a step

0:11:51back and be like they can do this

0:11:52without me. And so then it becomes one

0:11:54of the greatest honors. The businesses

0:11:56that are serious about AI are the ones

0:11:58that are pulling ahead. The ones that

0:11:59are not investing into AI are the ones

0:12:01that are falling behind. And every day

0:12:03that you're not investing into AI in

0:12:05your business, the gap between where you

0:12:07want to be and where you are is

0:12:09compounding. Most teams are AI curious,

0:12:11but they're not AI capable. They're

0:12:13dabbling, but they're not serious about

0:12:14investing time and energy into building

0:12:16AI into the business. You, as the

0:12:18business owner, and everyone on your

0:12:19team are too busy to figure out how to

0:12:21integrate AI into the business, but you

0:12:23know that you're supposed to. That's

0:12:24where Sixth Summit can help. They run

0:12:27two-day AI hackathons with you and your

0:12:30team where you walk away with actual AI

0:12:32implementation into your business. This

0:12:34is not theory. This is not another

0:12:36workshop. This is not another

0:12:37conference. This is where you have

0:12:38experts working alongside you and your

0:12:40team to actually build AI into the

0:12:42business. You will walk away after two

0:12:44days with actual results. I did this

0:12:46myself and I walked away with a whole

0:12:48team of AI agents that are able to run a

0:12:51lot of my back-end systems to help

0:12:52produce the content that you're watching

0:12:54and listening to right now. If I would

0:12:55not have carved out two days to sit

0:12:57alongside experts, I would never have

0:12:59found the time to actually build AI. And

0:13:01now every single day, I'm adding it more

0:13:02and more into my business. And I see how

0:13:04much of an impact it can have on growing

0:13:06my revenue and implementing into my

0:13:08business. So, if you're interested in

0:13:09actually implementing AI into your

0:13:10business right alongside experts that

0:13:12can help you produce results, go to

0:13:14sixthsummit.io. io/hackathon

0:13:17and enter the code fyogg to join the

0:13:20weight list. All right, back to the

0:13:21interview.

0:13:22>> And you built your team over time,

0:13:23right? That's that's something I think

0:13:25that, you know, even in my head, I'm

0:13:26like hiring people. You don't have to

0:13:28hire 10 people at once. You can hire a

0:13:29couple of people at a time. And and so

0:13:31you build your team over time. And how

0:13:33how much of like Steven's leadership is

0:13:36it in how you lead your team and like

0:13:39the frameworks that you've come up with?

0:13:40And we'll talk about your your 15point

0:13:42checklist and a lot of the things that I

0:13:44think are part of that that are also

0:13:45just ingrained in the culture, but like

0:13:47how much of Steven's leadership is

0:13:49ingrained in how you run your team

0:13:51versus just this is who I am and these

0:13:53are the struggles and the levels that I

0:13:55need to achieve.

0:13:56>> The best thing that Steve said to me was

0:14:01on my first day and it was him and Jack

0:14:05who co-founded the podcast and they said

0:14:09two things. One, I don't want you to

0:14:11watch any other podcast. I want you to

0:14:14come in with something that's completely

0:14:15fresh to you. And the second thing,

0:14:19every single project you do, I want you

0:14:21to try and make it 1% better every

0:14:23single time. And

0:14:26for me, those two things have been the

0:14:30foundations of how I've tried to lead

0:14:34this team. And I think that's the way

0:14:36we've grown so well and why I trust my

0:14:38team so well and why I trust everyone in

0:14:41the company so well is because that

0:14:43first thing of not watching anyone

0:14:46else's podcasts, it forces you to think

0:14:51for yourself. It forces you to face a

0:14:54problem and find a creative solution to

0:14:56that. And it is not going to be money.

0:14:59It's not going to be time. It's going to

0:15:01have to be something that you can

0:15:02implement straight away that solves this

0:15:05problem so this podcast can go out in

0:15:07the next day. And so when you teach

0:15:10people that, you're teaching them how

0:15:12they can become this insurance, right?

0:15:14You're teaching them how they can always

0:15:16be relied upon when they're needed and

0:15:18how they can adapt to certain situations

0:15:20and challenges. And then the second

0:15:22part, which is the 1% better every day,

0:15:24is it's naturally just going to lead to

0:15:27this compound growth. And half the

0:15:30messages I get, one half is about AI now

0:15:33and the other half is how can I make a

0:15:35dak trailer.

0:15:37[laughter]

0:15:38It's such a simple question to answer,

0:15:41but it's the one of the best bits of

0:15:44advice is

0:15:46that 1% rule because ultimately if you

0:15:49want to learn how to make something

0:15:51that's taken me 4 and a half years to

0:15:54create

0:15:56minus another

0:15:583 years at another company, then minus

0:16:00another four years at a company I

0:16:02co-owned. That's like 10 odd years

0:16:06experience that you're trying to get

0:16:08this blueprint or this one sentence

0:16:11answer from to then implement straight

0:16:13away and then make DAX style trailers.

0:16:15And so this 1% rule just allows you to

0:16:18do the tiniest parts and over time it

0:16:21develops, it develops, it develops, it

0:16:22gets better and better and better. And

0:16:24what starts off with that tiny little

0:16:26snowball, when you roll it up a hill

0:16:28full of snow, when you get to the top

0:16:30you're you're left with this massive

0:16:31boulder. And that is what the DOA

0:16:34trailers are now is this massive boulder

0:16:36that started from this tiniest snowball.

0:16:38If I watch back the first trailer I

0:16:40produced, I [ __ ] hate it. And I

0:16:42cannot believe it. When you realize that

0:16:44compound growth over time, suddenly you

0:16:46look back at your your arsenal of skills

0:16:49and this knowledge that you gained and

0:16:51you feel so good about yourself and you

0:16:52also feel so ready to take on any

0:16:54challenge, but it doesn't feel so

0:16:57daunting anymore because it's just that

0:16:59tiny sound effect or it might just be

0:17:01that tiny bridge word or it might be the

0:17:03certain font you used on that on that

0:17:05trailer. And so that's why those two

0:17:08things have been something I've really

0:17:09wanted to implement into my team. But

0:17:12ultimately with Steve, the biggest thing

0:17:15he's enforced onto all of us is that you

0:17:20just have to care so much. You don't

0:17:24have to be the most talented person in

0:17:26the room. You just have to outcare that

0:17:28person. And what I love about my team is

0:17:32they care so much. They're willing to do

0:17:36the hours if they need to do those

0:17:38hours. They're willing to do the

0:17:40research to find out why something works

0:17:42or doesn't work. They're willing to do

0:17:43the experimentation. They're willing to

0:17:45do all of that even when they've just

0:17:48come out of university or just come out

0:17:50of college because they know that if

0:17:53they care so much, they will find the

0:17:54answers. They will grow. They will learn

0:17:56and then ultimately they become what we

0:17:58always want, which is a players.

0:18:00>> And so then you mentioned

0:18:03kind of along the same vein of doing the

0:18:06difficult thing. So, how do you do the

0:18:08difficult thing? How do you get 1%

0:18:12better every time? And how do you

0:18:13outcare and also still put out an

0:18:16episode a week or two episodes a week

0:18:19and behind the diary?

0:18:20>> I think to to understand

0:18:23how to do the difficult thing, you

0:18:24should really ask yourself if the

0:18:25difficult thing is for you because you

0:18:28have to know what you're optimizing for

0:18:30at this stage in your life. So I'm 24

0:18:33which means that my first principles and

0:18:34what what I want my life to look like at

0:18:36this stage are I need to be immensely

0:18:38challenged. I need to be around people

0:18:40like yourselves, people who scare me a

0:18:41little bit, people who are more

0:18:42exceptional. And as a result, it's going

0:18:45to be really really difficult. Now when

0:18:46you work up from those first principles,

0:18:48the natural thing you're going to arrive

0:18:49at is really, really hard challenges. So

0:18:51for me, when I face a hard problem, it

0:18:54doesn't feel conflicting. It actually

0:18:56feels like perfect. I'm like, man, this

0:18:58is exactly where I need to be. I'm in a

0:19:00room. I do not know what Steve's just

0:19:01said to me. I don't know how to do that.

0:19:04Perfect. There's no real sense of

0:19:05imposter syndrome when you understand

0:19:07that that is the the the podium on which

0:19:10you want to lay your life. Um so to

0:19:12understand how to do the hard thing, ask

0:19:14yourself if it's for you. For me, I know

0:19:16it is. And as a result, it's just about

0:19:18finding yourself in situations where you

0:19:21really don't feel comfortable. And you

0:19:23do that in two ways. You find a

0:19:24challenge that's really difficult and

0:19:25you find an environment that's really

0:19:27difficult. I think 60% of the culture

0:19:30that we've kind of absorbed through

0:19:31osmosis is partly through Steve

0:19:34directly, you know, uh distilling it

0:19:36into people, but also like the osmosis

0:19:38of being around other exceptional

0:19:39people. You'll know this yourself. Um

0:19:42you can do something exceptional alone,

0:19:43but you can do something 10x more

0:19:45exceptional with other people around you

0:19:47who are also driven. Um so doing hard

0:19:49things is great, but if you can do hard

0:19:51things with other people who love doing

0:19:52hard things, then I think the results

0:19:54are 10x.

0:19:54>> Yeah, that's a championship team.

0:19:56>> Amen.

0:19:56>> Right. And that's a championship team is

0:19:57the people that want to do the hard

0:19:58things together and are exceptional.

0:20:00Tell me, cuz you said you walked in the

0:20:01office feeling like an imposttor. I

0:20:03don't know if you use those words, but

0:20:05not ever doing a YouTube channel. And so

0:20:06now you've grown behind the diary to

0:20:08400,000 subscribers, I think, sort of on

0:20:11your own, right?

0:20:12>> Yes. For the first two years. Yeah.

0:20:14>> Tell me your like mindset going into

0:20:16that environment and how you kind of

0:20:18overcame feeling like an imposttor and

0:20:20and then creating what you've created.

0:20:22>> I'll take you back a little bit. So,

0:20:24it's 9:00 a.m. on the 23rd of May, 2023,

0:20:27and I'm in the library. I'm pretending

0:20:29to work. I'm actually working on my

0:20:31business at the time, which was

0:20:32everything I was trying to do outside of

0:20:33my studies. And I get a text from my

0:20:34boss at the time. And he says to me,

0:20:37"Will,

0:20:38I'm going to have to fire you,

0:20:41okay? You'll get a text from someone

0:20:43called Jack, and he's going to call you

0:20:45later this afternoon." Jack is the

0:20:48co-founder of the DIY Co., started the

0:20:50podcast with Steve. I jump on a call

0:20:51with Jack. He says, "Will, we've got

0:20:52this crazy opportunity working with a

0:20:54guy called Steven Bartlet. He wants to

0:20:55launch a behind the scenes channel.

0:20:57You're going to be traveling everywhere.

0:20:58Have you ever been to the US?" "No,

0:20:59perfect. You're going to the US. This is

0:21:00what's going to happen. Are you

0:21:01interested?" I was like, "Man, yeah, of

0:21:03course." He says, "Where are you based?"

0:21:04I'm like, "Eddra." He's like, "Oh, man.

0:21:07Man, we need someone in London." So, we

0:21:09hung up the phone. I thought, "There's

0:21:11no chance." I spent four hours crafting

0:21:13a Hail Mary text for Jack. I said,

0:21:15"Look, Jack, this is more important than

0:21:17my degree. I will drop out. I'll be

0:21:19there next week. my priority is getting

0:21:21started with you and Steve. So that was

0:21:22a Friday and by the next Wednesday I got

0:21:25the job offer and by Friday I dropped

0:21:26out and by the next Wednesday I was in

0:21:28London. And when you combine that

0:21:30sequence of events, you arrive in a

0:21:33warehouse office in shortage unsure

0:21:35whether you've just made the best

0:21:36decision in your life or potentially the

0:21:38biggest risk. And your mom and dad know

0:21:40which one they think it is. Um but on

0:21:42the first day I remember we walked Steve

0:21:44walked into the office. Steve was in

0:21:45meetings all that morning when he walked

0:21:47in and eventually around midday him,

0:21:50Jack and I sit down and he asked me the

0:21:53question that I hoped he wouldn't ask

0:21:54me. He said, "Okay, so what do we want

0:21:55this YouTube channel to be?" And I said,

0:21:57"Man, I was I was hoping you'd tell me.

0:21:59[laughter] I was hoping you'd tell me."

0:22:01But we sat down for about an hour and we

0:22:03said, "Okay, the the the first

0:22:04principles of what we want this to be.

0:22:05We want to be behind the scenes of

0:22:07Steven's life, his life as an

0:22:09entrepreneur." And we started with a

0:22:10very simple premise that we know we want

0:22:12this to be valuable for entrepreneurs.

0:22:14we truly didn't know what the format

0:22:15was, but we said as long as it serves

0:22:17value for other entrepreneurs in

0:22:19Steven's positions, then we're in a good

0:22:21place. Um, and that's kind of how it

0:22:24started. I think one of the things that

0:22:26Jack and Steve did really well at the

0:22:27time is they just let me run. They just

0:22:30said, "Look, go build this thing." They

0:22:32gave me a bunch of autonomy and as a

0:22:34result, a bunch of autonomy and also

0:22:36pressure. So, you know, like pushing

0:22:38forward, making sure we're iterating. We

0:22:40spent the first 3 months maybe doing 30

0:22:42edits and eventually we arrived at what

0:22:45I consider now a tragedy of an episode.

0:22:47But it was the first one.

0:22:48>> I quite I mean I like the episode. I'm

0:22:50just saying it.

0:22:50>> But of course hindsight you look back

0:22:51and you're like man that was that was

0:22:53the best we had. [laughter]

0:22:55>> To interject on that a little bit when

0:22:57you cuz I think I started watching at

0:22:58the third episode and

0:22:59>> don't don't go further back.

0:23:00>> No. No. But I went back. No, I went

0:23:02back. I went back and you and Steve like

0:23:05you tell the story along the way of

0:23:07we're trying this out. We're building it

0:23:09as we go. So even one of the biggest

0:23:10personal brands in the world is building

0:23:13in public on this new thing that he's

0:23:15doing. And even then I was like, "Yeah,

0:23:16I'm here for it." Right? And if I'm

0:23:17getting value, then I'm getting value.

0:23:19Just because the first one might not

0:23:20have been as good as what you thought,

0:23:22it was still like extremely valuable.

0:23:24>> It's in demand. It came at a time where

0:23:26so much of the content we see online is

0:23:29told from the finish line. And it's like

0:23:31this is how I did XY Z to get XY Z. And

0:23:35it's told from the finish line. I think

0:23:37one of the things that Steve understands

0:23:38better than anyone is that people are

0:23:40craving the process. They're craving to

0:23:42see the mess and we really try and

0:23:45channel that into the episodes. So

0:23:46that's why you're going to see him

0:23:48messing about with his dog who's just

0:23:49peed in the corner of the room and then

0:23:51going to go into a VC meeting.

0:23:53>> Um because people want the human side.

0:23:55Uh and we're really obsessed with with

0:23:56showing that through the episodes.

0:23:58>> Yeah, I love it. It's inspired me to

0:24:00It's like at the top of my list of

0:24:02things that I can't get to, you know, or

0:24:04haven't prioritized or planned or given

0:24:06resources to,

0:24:07>> but I feel like, you know, I'm turning

0:24:0940 this year. People don't in their late

0:24:1230s decide that they want to go start a

0:24:14podcast and travel over the world and,

0:24:15you know, you know what I mean?

0:24:17[laughter]

0:24:18So, you're you're 20 you're 24. You're

0:24:21like, "Man, this guy's crazy."

0:24:22>> No, I love it. I'm I'm absolutely

0:24:23obsessed with it. But I I think I'm

0:24:26living a life that people want to live.

0:24:28And my one of my deepest desires is to

0:24:30be a permission slip for others to live

0:24:32their true purpose.

0:24:33>> O, I love that.

0:24:34>> Yeah. And so my my purpose is if I share

0:24:37all this, then I'm giving permission to

0:24:39people to go do whatever they want to go

0:24:40do, whether it's starting a podcast or

0:24:42personal brand or just quitting their

0:24:44job to go spend more time with their

0:24:46families. Like that means a lot to me to

0:24:48go do that. And I feel like the behind

0:24:50would actually give more

0:24:53more motivation or more Yeah. I don't

0:24:55know

0:24:55>> what stops you.

0:24:56>> A lot of the things that it comes to is

0:24:58around resources, you know, like it's

0:25:00another person adding to the team,

0:25:03adding to the the run rate. Um and

0:25:08and then there's a little bit of fear of

0:25:11how to package it up. You know, it's

0:25:12it's a whole another channel. It's a

0:25:13whole another team it feels like to to

0:25:15do that. So all of the normal

0:25:18>> I think you could you could start lower

0:25:20down the ladder

0:25:22>> because like when we think of the behind

0:25:24the scenes channels we think of it as

0:25:26like a you know it has to be this

0:25:28format. It has to be a 30inut story

0:25:30arked episode where people can see the

0:25:31whole process. We've got six cameramen.

0:25:33We've just flown all the way across

0:25:35seven continents and we filmed every

0:25:36single second. It doesn't have to be

0:25:37that complex.

0:25:38>> Yes it does. Will [laughter]

0:25:40>> we need seven Arlexas?

0:25:42>> Yeah. Yeah. We'll we'll give you a

0:25:44budget list for that one. Okay.

0:25:46>> But like what I guess what I'm really

0:25:47saying is that the the value that you

0:25:49provide, the human side of seeing your

0:25:51thoughts, your process could be a

0:25:52newsletter. It could be a substack you

0:25:54write every single day.

0:25:54>> It could be a carousel.

0:25:55>> It doesn't necessarily have to be this

0:25:57production point of like mass resource.

0:26:00And I think for a lot of founders where

0:26:01who are like paralyzed by like I want to

0:26:03do the BTS stuff, but I can't even I

0:26:05can't even pay myself.

0:26:07>> You can get the value out there

0:26:08elsewhere. You someone you're a deep

0:26:10thinker. You're you know you have

0:26:12interesting thoughts. It doesn't have to

0:26:14be this. It could also be a BTS that's a

0:26:17daily newsletter. Your thoughts? What

0:26:19are you learning? What was the challenge

0:26:20of setting all of this up? And maybe

0:26:22you'll prove the concept to then be able

0:26:24to prove the resource.

0:26:25>> Yeah. The other hesitation is like when

0:26:26I go all in on something, I go all in.

0:26:28And so that's, you know, it's the the

0:26:30fear of then just maintaining the next

0:26:33thing. But it's the same thing. Just

0:26:34iterate into it. So

0:26:35>> how do you prioritize that then for

0:26:37genuine question in terms of your

0:26:38ambition? where where how do you decide

0:26:41between something that you should do and

0:26:44that you can truly commit to and

0:26:46something that you're like I just really

0:26:48want to do it?

0:26:49>> That is a existential question that I

0:26:52struggle with like weekly. Uh because on

0:26:56the surface doing what I've done is like

0:26:57a little reckless, right? Like taking a

0:27:01lot of our resources and just putting

0:27:02into something that and and we are just

0:27:04getting sponsors, right? So we're

0:27:05getting some monetization on that end

0:27:06and we have real estate. But like we're

0:27:08we're fine. But I don't think most

0:27:10people can do this the way that I've

0:27:11done. And so

0:27:14should I be doing this from a societal

0:27:16standpoint? No. Right. I should be doing

0:27:20same story. 9 to5 right become extremely

0:27:23valuable in how much effort you put out

0:27:25in the work that you do.

0:27:27>> Uh and don't do something that is going

0:27:30to take 10 years and you know to get to

0:27:33where you want it to go, right? But when

0:27:35the desire on my heart is so deep and I

0:27:38truly believe that I can help people and

0:27:40the purpose is to satisfy my deepest

0:27:43desire and share and help people, then I

0:27:45feel like it's it's not an obligation.

0:27:48It doesn't feel like an obligation, but

0:27:49it's like it's my purpose to go to go do

0:27:52that. And I I looked at myself on my

0:27:55deathbed. I literally like visualized

0:27:56myself on my deathbed uh and asked

0:27:59myself what I would regret. And it was

0:28:02not doing this. It was literally not

0:28:04doing this.

0:28:05>> [ __ ] yeah, man.

0:28:05>> Yeah, exactly.

0:28:06>> I I want to run through a wall.

0:28:08[laughter]

0:28:09>> Do you know what I mean? When someone

0:28:10when someone pursues it, when someone

0:28:11just says, "No, this is this is what I

0:28:14have to pursue."

0:28:14>> Yeah.

0:28:15>> It's that whiplash moment of like you

0:28:17are just on the drums training every

0:28:18single night. I I see that in you.

0:28:20>> That's how the best things are started,

0:28:21right?

0:28:22>> Yeah. But also the most inspiring thing

0:28:23we could show you is the backend

0:28:25analytics graph of the diver CEO for the

0:28:27first three years.

0:28:28>> Yes, please. Honestly, I wish you could

0:28:31see this graph where it's this slow flat

0:28:35nothing line for three years and now

0:28:39it's this absolute monstrosity.

0:28:40>> Yeah.

0:28:41>> And I just wish like I wish we could

0:28:42show you the back end of that because

0:28:44it's I think it's probably the path that

0:28:46every single entrepreneur, creator,

0:28:48creative takes in this thing. But you

0:28:50seem pretty set on the fact that I'd

0:28:51still do this if it took 10 years,

0:28:52right?

0:28:53>> That was the switch that flipped in my

0:28:56brain.

0:28:57I I used to chase short-term stuff and

0:29:01one of my mentors, he kept saying it

0:29:04over and over and over again like you

0:29:05have to decide that it's going to take

0:29:0610 years and you have to be okay with

0:29:08that. And when it finally set, I don't

0:29:11know what did it or how it set, but it

0:29:12finally sat in my body and my mind

0:29:14differently. I was like, okay, this is

0:29:16going to take 10 years. And yeah,

0:29:18there's going to be things that come

0:29:19like this interview with you too is a,

0:29:20you know, a milestone. There's been

0:29:21other milestones along the way, but when

0:29:24I really set into it's going to take 10

0:29:26years and I'm going to have to be

0:29:29comfortable with just whatever happens

0:29:31along the way and I have to trust

0:29:32myself, that's when everything changed.

0:29:35>> I've got the kind of brain that's

0:29:36probably quite similar to yours and

0:29:38maybe some of the people watching where

0:29:40you struggle to be satisfied where with

0:29:42where you are and also lack perspective

0:29:43on where you could be. Um, and I was

0:29:45telling Steve about this in the car. He

0:29:47was like, "Where do you think you are?"

0:29:48And I was like, "Man, like we're only at

0:29:50100K subs. was like, and this was back

0:29:51in the day, we were flying. Um, and he

0:29:53said a quote to me that has stuck with

0:29:55me so much. He said, "Will, you need to

0:29:57be short-term impatient and long-term

0:29:59patient."

0:30:00>> Yeah.

0:30:00>> And I'm 24, so I don't have the same

0:30:03perspective that you have, but that

0:30:04short-term impatience means the hunger

0:30:06that you guys set this up probably in a

0:30:08day after flying in and you're chasing,

0:30:10chasing, chasing the next guest. But

0:30:11longterm

0:30:12>> understanding that it's going to take so

0:30:14much more time than that.

0:30:16>> I say that, but I struggle to embody

0:30:18that truly.

0:30:19>> Yeah. detaching from results, right?

0:30:22>> One of the greatest examples of that is

0:30:24investment.

0:30:26>> Every single finance expert we've had on

0:30:29the dial CEO says the same thing. The

0:30:32best way to to get passive income is to

0:30:36invest X amount into safe shares and

0:30:40bonds and just leave it for 40 to 50 odd

0:30:44years and then watch it compound. And

0:30:46obviously Warren Buffett is the most

0:30:48incredible example of that. And I think

0:30:51I think the biggest worry that we all

0:30:54have, especially in the society we live

0:30:56in now, is we all want the short-term

0:30:59growth. And we was talking about before

0:31:02we started recording, is the the idea of

0:31:04the effort paradox, right? And the way

0:31:06we've set up society now is get rich

0:31:09quick, work smarter not harder, um

0:31:13instant results,

0:31:16uh virality and vanity metrics. All all

0:31:19of these

0:31:20that we've built in this society right

0:31:22now, it all has this common denominator

0:31:25in it, which is impatience. And I

0:31:27genuinely believe impatience is the

0:31:30biggest disease that we have in the

0:31:33modern world that we have today. And you

0:31:35see it all the time. Like if if anyone

0:31:38is watching football or soccer at the

0:31:41moment in the Premier League, you've got

0:31:43a club like Tottenham Hotspur who are

0:31:47fighting for relegation. There's a

0:31:49chance they could go down into a

0:31:50championship. They've gone through four

0:31:52managers this season. Nott have gone

0:31:55through four managers as well this

0:31:57season. There's such a lack of patience

0:32:00now. the the lifespan of managers in

0:32:03football is is inc is incredibly low

0:32:06compared to what it used to be when you

0:32:08compared to like the arson of Arsenal

0:32:10and Alex Ferguson's and Manu and we see

0:32:12it all the time. It's like part of this

0:32:14whole comfort crisis that we're creating

0:32:16amongst ourselves. We don't want to cook

0:32:18the dinner, we want to get the takeaway.

0:32:20We don't we don't want to create a

0:32:23long-term personal brand strategy. We

0:32:26want to post something, hope it goes

0:32:28viral, and then wonder if the next one's

0:32:31going to do the exact same thing without

0:32:33any thought behind it. And all it

0:32:35ultimately leads to is this impatience

0:32:37why everyone's just rushing around and

0:32:39they're panicking and not thinking about

0:32:40what's best for them in the long term.

0:32:43And history has just shown time and time

0:32:45again those who sort of sit back and

0:32:47realize this is going to be a long-term

0:32:49journey, they're the ones who come out

0:32:52on top at the end. And I mean, I've had

0:32:55that exact same problem my entire life

0:32:59where if I'm not good at something, I

0:33:02get very frustrated at it. And but the

0:33:05reality of it is I also don't have the

0:33:08bandwidth to do all of the things that I

0:33:11want to do to the best possible skill

0:33:14set. And so one of the biggest things

0:33:17that I've learned through this whole

0:33:20process is to essentially in that moment

0:33:23of that time I'm just going to pour my

0:33:26heart and soul into it.

0:33:27>> Let's talk about storytelling maybe

0:33:29first because

0:33:31to me that's woven throughout the

0:33:34fabric. And so how do you will deal with

0:33:37storytelling in the behind the diary

0:33:40episodes and just in in your work that

0:33:42maybe we don't see

0:33:43>> specifically to culture? I'm going to

0:33:45take data and I'm going to take

0:33:46storytelling and I'm going to combine

0:33:48them because I think creatives typically

0:33:50look at this the wrong way around. They

0:33:51think that they can be data driven or

0:33:53they can be creative. And we start every

0:33:56single episode by testing and looking at

0:34:00what the right package is going to be,

0:34:01what the right title is going to be,

0:34:02what the right thumbnail is going to be.

0:34:03And once we have proof that someone is

0:34:05going to click this video, then we can

0:34:08start the fun part. Because wouldn't it

0:34:10be a shame if you spent so much time on

0:34:13this podcast, if you put all this

0:34:16pre-production together and then because

0:34:17you chose the wrong title, no one

0:34:19watches. I think creatives typically

0:34:21think that their genius is why people

0:34:23watch and they forget that it's a shop

0:34:25window. If the shop is really, really

0:34:27beautiful, but the shop window is

0:34:29disgusting, no one's going to click. So

0:34:31our storytelling, our creativity starts

0:34:33with data. Data can look like a variety

0:34:36of different things. It can be has this

0:34:37topic performed elsewhere before? Have

0:34:39we seen this pattern on YouTube before?

0:34:41Is this social clip something that's

0:34:42really really trending at the minute? We

0:34:44start there [snorts] and then we get

0:34:45into the fun stuff which for behind the

0:34:47diary specifically is mostly around

0:34:49three principles. The first and these

0:34:53are specifically to BCD but I think they

0:34:55apply for anyone who wants to tell

0:34:57better stories. The first principle is

0:34:59important and it's understanding that no

0:35:01one cares and no one knows. And we

0:35:05[laughter] whenever we do anything in

0:35:06behind the diary, we ask ourselves this

0:35:08question. Does anyone care and does

0:35:10anyone know? And usually they don't. We

0:35:11put every piece of content through this

0:35:13visual framework where we assume that

0:35:16the person watching this, let's call her

0:35:18Margaret, she's driving down the road.

0:35:21She's just broken down. She's actually

0:35:2330 minutes late to an appointment. Her

0:35:25kids are screaming in the back of the

0:35:26car. She's getting out the car. It's

0:35:27pouring with rain. She opens her phone

0:35:29and at that point your piece of content

0:35:31comes out. What would you have to say to

0:35:33her for her to care? Cuz we start with

0:35:36this assumption that no one has any time

0:35:37and no one cares. The second thing we do

0:35:39in Behind the Diary is we assume that no

0:35:40one knows, no one has context. So at

0:35:43every single point in the edit, we're

0:35:44giving context. We're asking Steve, hey,

0:35:47come out of this moment. Give us context

0:35:48on who this person is and why it ties

0:35:50into the wider mission. A lot of the

0:35:51behind the scenes and a lot of

0:35:53storytelling generally I think forgets

0:35:54that the audience member have their own

0:35:57life. They have limited time and they

0:35:58have no idea who you are. So if you want

0:36:00them to care then give them context

0:36:02first. Um the second storytelling

0:36:04principle for me that I think has helped

0:36:07shape some of the arcs is the idea that

0:36:09we don't really tell stories to our

0:36:11audience. We try and sell them to our

0:36:12audience. So imagine a real estate agent

0:36:15walking you through let's say this

0:36:17property. He would never or she would

0:36:19never walk you into this room and say,

0:36:21"Uh, oak table, uh, brand new floors.

0:36:23We've got a couple lights, nice lights,

0:36:25window lights. There's a little

0:36:26mezzanine here, and actually the

0:36:27kitchen's got some new appliances." They

0:36:28would never do that. They would walk you

0:36:30down the beautiful alleyway outside. And

0:36:33they'd say, "Listen,

0:36:36we're in central London and it's so

0:36:38quiet." And then they'd fly you through

0:36:40the front door. They'd say, "Look at

0:36:41this brand new kitchen. It's got hot

0:36:42cold tap. It's got a brand new oven.

0:36:44This gas cooker is one of the fastest

0:36:46ever." They race you upstairs. They take

0:36:48you through all the features really,

0:36:49really quickly. And then they take you

0:36:50to the cinema room and again they're

0:36:52going to slow you down and they're going

0:36:53to say, "Look how quiet it is here." And

0:36:55then they're going to take you down to

0:36:56the floorboards and they're going to

0:36:56say, "You see this oak flooring? This is

0:36:58actually imported from Japan from a

0:37:01conser conservation forest." And your

0:37:03grandfather is a woodworker. So actually

0:37:06this space would have been a dream for

0:37:08him. They are not telling you the

0:37:09features of this property. They are

0:37:11selling them to you. So much

0:37:12storytelling is A to B. Steve had this

0:37:16investment meeting and as a result we

0:37:18got here. We need to start thinking as

0:37:20storytellers about selling it to our

0:37:22audience. Take them on this emotional

0:37:24roller coaster where you're going to

0:37:25speed them up, then you're going to slow

0:37:26them down and then you're going to give

0:37:27them a bit more context. Let them

0:37:28breathe and then you're going to pace

0:37:29forward towards the payoff. We do this

0:37:31in Behind the Diary so much. If you look

0:37:33at any of the edits, you'll see that

0:37:35they are basically this game of push and

0:37:37then pull. We're taking on this roller

0:37:39coaster of emotion the whole time. Um,

0:37:42so yeah, that storyteller versus

0:37:43storyteller principle for me is is

0:37:45really really crucial. I'm going to hand

0:37:47the last storytelling bit to you though

0:37:49because I think I'm sat next to the goat

0:37:51of storytelling. So I I don't want to I

0:37:53don't want to take too much of the

0:37:54limelight here.

0:37:55>> When you think about throughout human

0:37:57history,

0:37:59stories has been how we've conveyed

0:38:01messages, right? The way we understood

0:38:04news was through stories. The way we

0:38:08learned history was through stories. And

0:38:13one of the greatest examples that I

0:38:16always love is this idea of the War of

0:38:19the Worlds, the um the famous novel that

0:38:23was actually played out as a radio show.

0:38:26And people believed it so much that

0:38:30aliens were invading planet Earth and

0:38:32attacking them. It caused such commotion

0:38:35because the story that they told they

0:38:38believed it to be news. And that's what

0:38:42I love about the power of storytelling,

0:38:44right? Is the it's this idea that it's

0:38:46innate in all of us. That is how we

0:38:48understand what's going on around us.

0:38:50That's also how we piece like moments

0:38:53together, how we create answers for

0:38:56ourselves. We're I mean the world that

0:38:59we're living in right now in terms of

0:39:01turbulent times is

0:39:04pretty um historic as it is. And most of

0:39:07it's driven by stories. And so

0:39:11whether it's for good or for bad, you

0:39:14cannot you you cannot um disregard just

0:39:18how important storytelling is. And I

0:39:20think that's something that especially

0:39:22in content today, a lot of that is being

0:39:24missed. And it's the simple ideas of

0:39:27taking your viewer on a journey, on an

0:39:30emotional journey. And I think if people

0:39:33learn that and they learn how to tell a

0:39:36story, they can do whatever they want.

0:39:39In terms of like the data point, you

0:39:40made this really interesting observation

0:39:42of like we have different cultures at at

0:39:44Flight Story with Steve where we we

0:39:46obsess around data, we obsess around

0:39:47storytelling, and we obsess around the

0:39:49social side of things as well. you have

0:39:51I'm going to let you tell it cuz you

0:39:52have this amazing analogy for operating

0:39:54with data creativity and then also

0:39:57marketing. Can you tell us about the hat

0:39:59analogy cuz it's just it's one of my

0:40:01favorites.

0:40:01>> Yeah, so it's a thing I'm working on at

0:40:03the moment called the free hats and the

0:40:05free the free metaphorical hats is

0:40:07something that every single content

0:40:09creator needs. Every single founder I

0:40:12believe who wants to build a personal

0:40:13brand for example. And so the three hats

0:40:17goes like this. You have your top hat.

0:40:19That's your first hat. And that's your

0:40:20storytelling hat. And that is what will

0:40:23was saying before. That is the hat where

0:40:25people believe that people are going to

0:40:27them because of their stories on how

0:40:29they tell stories. They've they've

0:40:31earned that hat. That's why it's a top

0:40:32hat. That's almost that's your

0:40:36stubborn

0:40:38but well-earned hat. You've gone to

0:40:41university to study this stuff. You've

0:40:42watched all the films. You know the

0:40:44story arcs. You know all the structures

0:40:46going behind it. And when you have that

0:40:49top hat, that means you know how to tell

0:40:51a great story.

0:40:53But then you have this second hat, which

0:40:54is the baseball cap, and that's what I

0:40:57call your marketing hat. And these hats

0:41:00sometimes collide because what the story

0:41:04hat wants to do is to take this audience

0:41:07on this beautiful narrative arc

0:41:10[laughter]

0:41:11that gives away all of its secrets that

0:41:14tells everything that has this lovely

0:41:16happy ending at the end. And then the

0:41:18marketing hat is like, "Yeah, but does

0:41:23it make me want to buy your soap?"

0:41:25>> Yeah. [laughter]

0:41:27>> Does it make me Yes, it does. God damn

0:41:29it. Does this really talk to the

0:41:32audience? Does this sell what we want it

0:41:35to sell? Does this story reflect the

0:41:39brand? Does this style of Does this

0:41:42style of trailer that you want to make

0:41:44reflect the entire brand of this podcast

0:41:48that you have? Most of the time, the

0:41:51answer is no. I've seen enough trailers

0:41:53now and I I've look, I love it, and

0:41:56people send me messages all the time.

0:41:58sending me their trailers and if I if I

0:42:00have any time I'll try and watch as many

0:42:02as I can and give feedback.

0:42:04The podcast could be about gardening and

0:42:07they'll send me a dax style trailer for

0:42:09gardening

0:42:11[laughter]

0:42:12>> and he'll be like what's what's the best

0:42:15soil that you use for daisies? The trick

0:42:18is that you need to like [ __ ] hell.

0:42:22We're only talking about soil. And it's

0:42:24so and it's this idea that they think

0:42:26that this one style suits all. And a lot

0:42:29of that is because the people who are

0:42:31making these trailers, they have that

0:42:32top hat. You know, they might have gone

0:42:34to film school, they've studied media

0:42:35studies, they've got all that. They know

0:42:37how to tell a story. They've learned

0:42:38that part. What they're missing is that

0:42:40marketing hat, which is to put that on

0:42:42and be like, does this reflect the

0:42:44brand? Does this actually go for what

0:42:46the brand stands for? Does this go for

0:42:48our selling points? what do we want this

0:42:50video to actually achieve? And so

0:42:53there's always a little bit of tone and

0:42:55throwing between the two and

0:42:57traditionally you c you can get along

0:42:59with them. And that's usually how TV

0:43:02commercials and marketing has been done

0:43:04for years is between those two hats. Now

0:43:06we have a new hat and that's the hard

0:43:09hat and that's our data hat.

0:43:12>> The reason why it's a hard hat is

0:43:14because no one really likes wearing a

0:43:17hard hat. No one really wants to be that

0:43:20guy on a construction site having to

0:43:22wear a hard hat. They're not cool.

0:43:24They're just numbers. And they really

0:43:27piss off the other two hats because I

0:43:30want to tell this beautiful story. The

0:43:32marketing hat is like, "Okay, as long as

0:43:35long as it aligns to the product and to

0:43:37the brand, that's great. You tell this

0:43:39story." And then the hard hat comes

0:43:40along and be like, "By the way, most

0:43:43people are searching for peptides at the

0:43:45moment."

0:43:46>> Yeah. how can you weave that into the

0:43:48trailer? And it's like, well, I don't

0:43:51want to weave that into the trailer

0:43:52because it doesn't fit within this

0:43:54story. And the data is like, well,

0:43:55that's what people are searching for.

0:43:56We've tested this. This is what the data

0:43:58says. This is what most people are

0:44:00searching for. People are also watching

0:44:02this, this, this, this, and this. If you

0:44:04want your trailer to be successful and

0:44:06keep your marketing h happy, you've got

0:44:09to go through as many of these data

0:44:10points as possible. And so the reason

0:44:13why the top hat doesn't quite like it is

0:44:15because it's almost like you're putting

0:44:17like constraints on me. You're putting

0:44:20me you're backing me into a corner. I'm

0:44:21like I want to tell a story. You cannot

0:44:24constrain me with storytelling. But a

0:44:27data hat is like we've got to constrain

0:44:28you because this is what people are

0:44:30looking for. And so the reason why I

0:44:33call it hats is because you have to take

0:44:35one off and put the other one on. If

0:44:37you're trying to put all of them on at

0:44:38the same time, you're left frustrated.

0:44:41And if it you actually was wearing all

0:44:43three hats, you look a bit like a [ __ ]

0:44:44because you just cannot figure this out.

0:44:47You cannot figure out how can I tell

0:44:49this story knowing I've got to hit this

0:44:50point, this point, this point. Also, the

0:44:52winning thumbnails is about this. This

0:44:54has nothing to do with the rest of the

0:44:56topics because this is just a sentence

0:44:58that's spoken about for 2 minutes in the

0:45:00episode, but the data is telling me that

0:45:02people are clicking on this thumbnail.

0:45:05So, that has to be a hook somehow. And

0:45:08so what you end up doing is you're

0:45:09taking these different hats off because

0:45:11you have to compromise to create the

0:45:14product that's best for your product,

0:45:16for your podcast, for your brand, for

0:45:18your service. And so that's why I

0:45:20believe you need these three hats. And

0:45:22that's where I think most people are

0:45:23falling from because they may have the

0:45:26top hat. They may have the top hat and

0:45:28the hard hat or they may have the top

0:45:29hat and the marketing hat. But a lot of

0:45:31them are struggling to have all three.

0:45:33And it's only when you have all three is

0:45:35when you create something that is a

0:45:37takes an audience on an emotional roller

0:45:39coaster. But B creates enough intrigue

0:45:42to lead them to then want to watch the

0:45:44podcast. Therefore act on the service

0:45:46and achieve the marketing hat. But free

0:45:48is backed up by the data knowing that

0:45:51this is going to bring people in. This

0:45:53is going to keep them watching past this

0:45:55minute mark and this is going to lead

0:45:57them to actually want to like sort their

0:46:00lives out and live a happier life. And

0:46:02so for me, that's imperative for any

0:46:04content creator.

0:46:05>> So who wins? The top hat, the marketing

0:46:08hat, or the data hat.

0:46:10>> No one wins.

0:46:11>> Yeah.

0:46:11>> All three hats take a step back at the

0:46:13end of it with a beer and goof, [ __ ]

0:46:16that was difficult.

0:46:18>> Yeah.

0:46:19>> But I I I can see where you're coming

0:46:20from there. You you help me there. You

0:46:22save me there.

0:46:24>> Marketing hats happy. I've got I've got

0:46:25my million I've got my million views.

0:46:27I've got this community talking. The

0:46:29story hats is like, you know what? I

0:46:30still managed to get someone crying in

0:46:32this trailer and I still managed to

0:46:35somehow twist it round and create this

0:46:37beautiful ending and the data hats is

0:46:40like look you're you're hitting all the

0:46:42numbers that I wanted you to hit. And so

0:46:44you take that step back and you reflect

0:46:46and you're like okay these were the best

0:46:47decisions that you made to compromise

0:46:49and then you have to do it again in two

0:46:50hours time.

0:46:52>> Yeah.

0:46:52>> And [laughter] then the battle begins.

0:46:54>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you're doing trailers

0:46:56basically every 3 days, right?

0:46:58>> Every two and a half days. Yeah.

0:46:59>> Every two and a half days. Yeah. And

0:47:00then you just keep going. So, how are

0:47:02you how are you even making all those

0:47:03decisions in such a short amount of

0:47:04time?

0:47:05>> Well, again, this is where the the hats

0:47:08actually come out to help you. You know,

0:47:09when you've when you've got the data,

0:47:12you're killing so much of the guesswork.

0:47:14And so what the stubborn top hat is

0:47:18neglecting at the start is if I just

0:47:20allowed that data in and before I start

0:47:24creating this foundation, if I know it's

0:47:25got to hit this, this, this, and this,

0:47:27at least now I've got foundations that I

0:47:29can somehow try and lead to it. And

0:47:31that's now the challenge and is to try

0:47:33and combine those old things. But at

0:47:35least I'm killing the guesswork here.

0:47:37And again with the marketing hat,

0:47:39they're just like, well, the data is

0:47:41backing this up on what people are

0:47:44searching for. If my goal is to make

0:47:47people to want to watch 2 hours of their

0:47:50valuable time in a world where people

0:47:52don't really have two hours of their

0:47:54time or they think they don't have two

0:47:55hours, how can we convince them to do

0:47:57that? You got to lead in with the data,

0:48:00but then you also have to tell a story

0:48:02to keep them invested. And so ultimately

0:48:07by having those three hats, you're

0:48:09cutting you're cutting out all of those

0:48:11pain points. You're cutting out all

0:48:12these bottleneck procedures that we

0:48:15naturally build for ourselves of moments

0:48:17of doubt because it's killing that

0:48:20guesswork and we can just go ahead

0:48:21knowing that we're doing the best thing

0:48:23possible for the people at the time.

0:48:25>> How much of like human psychology is

0:48:28built in or you smiled as soon as I said

0:48:31that. Yeah. Like how much of human

0:48:33psychology is this in creating content,

0:48:35creating trailers, packaging?

0:48:37>> From a packaging perspective, so much.

0:48:39I'll let you speak to the the rest, but

0:48:41we try and make a lot of the packaging

0:48:43and and titling that we do emotional,

0:48:47broad appeal, and specific. Um, that's

0:48:50like the entire framework and some kind

0:48:51of curiosity gap. So, collecting people

0:48:54framework, something that sounds

0:48:55slightly different to what you've heard

0:48:57before. Um, if it's not emotional, no

0:48:59one's going to click. If it's not

0:49:00specific, um, it's going to sound like

0:49:03everything else. If it's not broad

0:49:04appeal, then no one's going to even look

0:49:05at it. Like, for example, if we were to

0:49:07title this episode, you could say, um,

0:49:10the

0:49:12the two the two editors from Diver CEO

0:49:16or actually, if I was packaging Ant

0:49:18right now, I'd say Antony's three hat

0:49:21framework that gave an extra 17 minutes

0:49:23of AVD on YouTube. I'm like, okay,

0:49:25that's emo. Uh it's maybe it could be

0:49:27more emotional, but it's specific and

0:49:28it's broad appeal because it's got the

0:49:30direo tied into it. Um for packaging,

0:49:33that's one of the ways we think about it

0:49:34psychologically.

0:49:35>> One of the best things anyone could

0:49:37learn in any area of their life is a

0:49:42basic understanding of human psychology.

0:49:44Because if you understand human

0:49:45psychology,

0:49:47it always sounds so negative, but I

0:49:51don't mean it in a negative way, but if

0:49:52you understand human psychology, you

0:49:54know how to talk to people. You know how

0:49:56to make a sale. You know how to convince

0:49:59people of doing certain things. And it

0:50:02obviously there's those negative

0:50:04connotations behind it, but the positive

0:50:06connotations is if I can convince people

0:50:07to watch this,

0:50:09it might transform their life for the

0:50:11better. If I can convince someone to buy

0:50:14this, it might be the best purchase

0:50:17they've ever had in their life. And so

0:50:19having a basic understanding of human

0:50:21psychology, I think, can push you and

0:50:24your career so far because you're

0:50:27understanding humans. You're

0:50:29understanding what makes us tick. Our

0:50:31brains haven't evolved that much

0:50:34compared to how we as a society has

0:50:37evolved. They even say our our brains

0:50:39are so far back to where we are. And

0:50:41part of that is why we're struggling so

0:50:43much in society right now is because

0:50:45we've we've still got like these like

0:50:49ancient brains within us and they've not

0:50:52changed much. And so if you can

0:50:55implement those sort of parts and those

0:50:59techniques and those studies into the

0:51:02work that you do, for example,

0:51:04negativity bias,

0:51:07people are drawn naturally to more

0:51:10negative keywords. They're more drawn to

0:51:13negative frameworks because a lot of it

0:51:17is a a survival thing, right? For

0:51:20example, true crime. One of the biggest

0:51:23reasons why people watch true crime

0:51:24documentaries isn't because we enjoy

0:51:27true crime documentaries. A study showed

0:51:30that a reason why a lot of women watch

0:51:32true crime is because sort of

0:51:34subconsciously they're on the lookout to

0:51:36what to stay away from. So that's our

0:51:39brain doing the work for us. We're not

0:51:41watching it to find out who the killer

0:51:44is or what happened. We're finding out

0:51:46specifically what are the flags that I

0:51:49need to look for? what are the

0:51:50characteristics so I can be safe? And we

0:51:52do that in so many areas of our lives.

0:51:55So if you're a charity, for example, and

0:51:58you want people to give you money, you

0:52:01want to go down the route of [snorts]

0:52:04sadness because and that's what you

0:52:07often see, right? When you when you have

0:52:09a charity that is asking for a donation,

0:52:13a lot of the time their marketing is

0:52:15more based on I guess the the negative

0:52:19side of this. Okay. They show the they

0:52:21show the footage of it's usually in like

0:52:24black and white. It's slower. It's it's

0:52:26sad. It's emotional. And they know that

0:52:29because if people are to give money,

0:52:31they need to almost have a little bit of

0:52:33this guilt complex within them where my

0:52:36life's great right now. Maybe I should

0:52:39give some money away. Or, you know, I

0:52:42fear I fear for this person or I feel so

0:52:44much for this person. I can I can I can

0:52:47give this I can give this away. I can do

0:52:49that. if they wanted to sell a product,

0:52:52for example, charity I know that sells

0:52:54boxes, for example, I'm not buying your

0:52:57boxes if you're showing me really sad

0:52:59footage because that's not that's not

0:53:01where my brain's at at the moment. I

0:53:03want if I want to pay boxes, okay,

0:53:04great. It's going to a great cause, but

0:53:07I'm buying a product now. And so, you

0:53:10need to sell to me that you're selling a

0:53:12product, not so much of the idea. And

0:53:14that's why then you will have those

0:53:16charities a lot more fun. and they were

0:53:17a lot more bright and their focus is

0:53:19more on the product and doing these fun

0:53:21things to make you go, "Okay, yeah, I'll

0:53:22buy those. I'll buy those boxes." And so

0:53:25that's one industry doing two completely

0:53:28different frameworks, going completely

0:53:29different ends of the spectrum of how

0:53:31you're feeling and how you're trying to

0:53:32provoke emotion. And that's human

0:53:34psychology. And so that's something we

0:53:36weave into every single trailer that we

0:53:39produce, every single story that we

0:53:41create because we know that we have a

0:53:43much higher likelihood of having people

0:53:46sacrifice, not sacrificing. We have a

0:53:50much higher likelihood of people giving

0:53:53their time to our podcast to watch a

0:53:55full episode.

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0:55:12right, back to the show.

0:55:14>> You must do this as well. Like, from

0:55:15your background in real estate, I'd love

0:55:17to know

0:55:19how much of that carries over to your

0:55:21work today as a creator and as a

0:55:23podcaster. like there must be certain

0:55:25psychological techniques that you saw in

0:55:27your customers and clients that you've

0:55:28taken over.

0:55:29>> Well, I have I have two histories. I

0:55:31have I was an engineer um for a long

0:55:34time and definitely

0:55:37I was a different type of engineer

0:55:38because I could communicate and I was

0:55:41pretty [laughter]

0:55:43>> let's not brush over that. You have a

0:55:45systems.

0:55:45>> No offense to every other engineer

0:55:48[laughter]

0:55:49into this,

0:55:51>> but you have a systems brain, right?

0:55:53>> Um, you know what? I I there's people

0:55:56that have more of a systems brain than I

0:55:58do. I because something that I was

0:56:00really good at as an engineer was

0:56:01selling my projects to executives, to

0:56:05the finance team to to get what I

0:56:07wanted, right? Um, pitching people. So

0:56:10there was something about me being

0:56:12technical to be able to do the job but

0:56:14also um being able to kind of sell.

0:56:18>> And I think to the point you said around

0:56:21pitching to your you know these CFOs to

0:56:23get your engineer project funded what

0:56:26you're doing there and what you're doing

0:56:28now as a podcaster as well is taking

0:56:31it's being selfless in a way. You're

0:56:33taking yourself out of your perception

0:56:36and seeing the content seeing the

0:56:38project from someone else's perspective.

0:56:39And I think this is where really really

0:56:41good storytelling starts is when you say

0:56:43this isn't actually about me.

0:56:45>> This is about understanding how someone

0:56:46else views this, understanding their

0:56:48psychological needs, understanding that

0:56:50they watch behind the diary because they

0:56:51want to be seen as an ambitious person

0:56:53who strives and then creating something

0:56:55that serves that need because all action

0:56:57is downstream from someone else feeling

0:56:58like their psychological needs have been

0:57:00met.

0:57:01>> So I think that's clearly something that

0:57:02you do really well.

0:57:03>> Say that again.

0:57:04>> Action is downstream from the viewer and

0:57:06audience feeling that their

0:57:07psychological needs have been met. Okay.

0:57:09And so they clicked wondering if their

0:57:12psychological needs are going to be met

0:57:13or maybe not consciously but

0:57:14subconsciously and then they are and

0:57:18then the action is following,

0:57:19subscribing, signing up for a

0:57:21newsletter, right? Is that what you're

0:57:22saying?

0:57:23>> And if as in if the psychological need

0:57:24is that they want to be a part of a

0:57:26community, then the action really is

0:57:27making sure that every Sunday at 6 p.m.

0:57:29you're there no matter what.

0:57:30>> Um so the it depends on what the action

0:57:32you want from them is. If the action you

0:57:34want from them is you need them to

0:57:36quickly spend $60 on a notion template,

0:57:38then you better create a sense of

0:57:40urgency and that it's running out. Um,

0:57:42but from a for for me, from a content

0:57:44perspective, from a storytelling

0:57:45perspective, it's often a bit more

0:57:47different than that. Often people want

0:57:49to feel seen in our content. They want

0:57:50to feel that it's not just them. So

0:57:53actually the way we get through that in

0:57:56in the edits is showing the whole

0:57:57process, showing the mess, showing all

0:57:59of the human side alongside that.

0:58:01>> Mhm. I love that story around pitching

0:58:03to uh to finance people as an engineer

0:58:06because I think it's it's probably

0:58:07what's it applies to so many parallels

0:58:09as a creative.

0:58:10>> Yeah, you have to know who has the

0:58:12budget and you have to know what the

0:58:13motivations are. Who's the who are the

0:58:15decision makers, right? And then I also

0:58:17as an engineer would serve the

0:58:18customers. We had the company I worked

0:58:20for, we uh it was the power company. We

0:58:21had like 1.8 million customers. They

0:58:24were literally my customers. And so

0:58:26everything that I was doing was on

0:58:27behalf of the customers and I took that

0:58:28to heart, right? And so the same thing

0:58:30with the podcast is true is everything I

0:58:33do is centered around what value are

0:58:35they going to get out of this? What do I

0:58:36think my audience wants to hear? Which

0:58:38is also why will when you suggested

0:58:40doing it together? I was like, yeah, how

0:58:42do we how do we make a valuable

0:58:43audience? Okay, you know, we're going to

0:58:44talk about both of you specifically, but

0:58:46also like just behind the scenes, what

0:58:48is it like working with Stephen? What

0:58:50are memorable moments? My audience and

0:58:52people, I think, want to get more behind

0:58:54the scenes and understand more. And when

0:58:56I asked friends and family about, you

0:58:58know, what they're interested in, it was

0:58:59it was all of these intricacies about

0:59:01the culture and the decision-making and

0:59:03the justification and the overaring that

0:59:06people are really interested in about

0:59:09how Steven operates, right, and how the

0:59:11company operates. And so to me, it's

0:59:13like how do I create that value for the

0:59:16audience, but then also

0:59:19like not be clickbaity, right? because I

0:59:22think we were kind of going down that

0:59:23path with what you were saying is create

0:59:25negative emotions or perceive negative

0:59:26emotions

0:59:28um and people are going to want to click

0:59:30more urgency, right? And then your

0:59:32framework around being emotional

0:59:34specific and um broad appeal

0:59:38like how do you do that? How do you do

0:59:41that without just being clickbaity or

0:59:42clickbay?

0:59:43>> You have to respect the audience. You

0:59:45have to

0:59:48it's it's a it's an interesting term

0:59:50with this whole idea like with with

0:59:53clickbait and

0:59:55so many I think so many people really

0:59:58struggle with this idea of start for

1:00:01example whenever we release an AI

1:00:03episode and so many people struggle with

1:00:08that concept of having people being like

1:00:11there's going to be mass joblessness

1:00:12there's going to be this going to be

1:00:14that the the scary side of AI, right?

1:00:17And we're always in a bit of a

1:00:19crossroads because the data is showing

1:00:24that's what people are clicking on time

1:00:27and time again, bearing in mind every

1:00:29single AI episode will get tested and

1:00:33the results the the results that come

1:00:35back always show the same thing which

1:00:37are people nav naturally gravitate

1:00:40towards it. And so the way I sort of

1:00:44answer that side is if you want to

1:00:47create something that is going to

1:00:50positively impact someone's life,

1:00:53you need to get them there to do it. And

1:00:56so you need to have this

1:01:00I guess this moral and ethical and this

1:01:04constant challenge of like tugofwar

1:01:08between how you get people there and

1:01:11giving them that value to do that. And

1:01:13that's why I mean for us as the trailers

1:01:16evolved that's why we started adding in

1:01:18moments of value for example because we

1:01:21wanted to be like okay we're we're

1:01:23offering you a promise here that

1:01:26if you go and watch this episode

1:01:29potentially it will change your life for

1:01:31the better. And to prove that we're

1:01:33going to offer you a little bit of free

1:01:35advice in this trailer here and now. So

1:01:37if you if you don't go and watch the

1:01:39episode, you've still learned something

1:01:40that you can take away, but it's doing

1:01:43it in a in a hope that it's like, okay,

1:01:45we've given you that if you if you

1:01:48enjoyed that moment of value, there's so

1:01:50much more that you're going to get from

1:01:51this episode. And so that's why we

1:01:53brought in a moment of value is is this

1:01:56is our offering to you to be like, look,

1:01:59this is this is your freebie. And this

1:02:01goes back to what supermarkets used to

1:02:03do, which is the idea of lost leaders,

1:02:04right? where they would give out free

1:02:06food at the at the entrance of a

1:02:09supermarket and you're actually more

1:02:10likely to spend more money in the

1:02:13supermarket, but also trust in that

1:02:16brand grew because people like, "Oh,

1:02:19I've just been given a free free fruit

1:02:21here that I can eat around and do." It's

1:02:22the reason why they give bread in a

1:02:24restaurant. You're more likely to also

1:02:26spend more money when you get are given

1:02:28free bread at the restaurant and people

1:02:30love it. every my favorite restaurant

1:02:32that me and my partner go to. We love it

1:02:35for the free bread at the start

1:02:37[laughter] and we keep coming back

1:02:39because of the free bread and the free

1:02:41bread is incredible and subconsciously

1:02:44that's probably why we come back and we

1:02:46spend the money on that food because we

1:02:47love it that much. And so, but it's

1:02:49paying that respect of like

1:02:52this is in the context of say something

1:02:54to do with AI and joblessness and all of

1:02:56that. This is scary. We're not trying to

1:02:59sugarcoat this and we're not putting our

1:03:01heads in the sand and we're saying this

1:03:03is great. This this whole thing is

1:03:04great. The data is saying that people

1:03:08are n naturally gravitating towards

1:03:09that. So we're going to peak your

1:03:11interest but we are going to offer you

1:03:13hope which is usually the solution

1:03:15solution. If you look at the one of the

1:03:17narrative structures that we have is um

1:03:19called what I call the salesman which is

1:03:22the problem cost solution. So, we start

1:03:24with the problem. We then go into the

1:03:26cost, which is how that's going to

1:03:28affect everyone, but then we're going to

1:03:30offer the solution. And the solution is

1:03:32usually a moment of value, but there's

1:03:34also more solutions that you're going to

1:03:35learn along the way. And so, that's one

1:03:37of our frameworks that we use because

1:03:41there are a lot of people who jump

1:03:43straight into like scaring people fear,

1:03:47but then they don't offer anything at

1:03:48the end. they just end it as like this

1:03:50is going to be horrific and a crisis and

1:03:54then so you sort of end it a little bit

1:03:56like oh [ __ ] Whereas if you offer that

1:04:00seed of hope it will create that moment

1:04:03of like okay I'm going to give this a go

1:04:07because there's something there's that

1:04:08light at the end of the tunnel. We've

1:04:10offered that tiny glimpse of light at

1:04:12the end of the tunnel. And again you've

1:04:13also got to remember like with these

1:04:14hats the marketing hat is like look we

1:04:16need people to watch this show. We can't

1:04:18give everything away in a trailer. So,

1:04:20you have to give you have to you can

1:04:22give something, but don't give it all

1:04:23away. And so, that's what I mean by you

1:04:25have this constant tugof-war of

1:04:27obviously you want to make sure that

1:04:28what you're doing is always in the

1:04:30pursuit for the audience and for the

1:04:33guest and for Steve and for the podcast.

1:04:36So, you're trying to please so many

1:04:38different people here. And that's where

1:04:40again that human psychology part comes

1:04:43in because you can use those elements

1:04:45quickly to try and sum all of that up in

1:04:47about 90 seconds. And also understand

1:04:49that indifference is the least

1:04:51profitable outcome when it comes to

1:04:53packaging. So you could say yes,

1:04:56clickbait is potentially going to be

1:04:58harmful and as it's as a creative you

1:05:00might be hesitant to make your titles

1:05:03too, you know, too much, but

1:05:04indifference doesn't serve anyone and it

1:05:06definitely doesn't serve your audience

1:05:07or your channel. So, there's a line, I

1:05:09think, um, because I agree with a lot of

1:05:11what you say, but there is a line

1:05:12between clickbait and making them feel

1:05:15something. Just make sure you're

1:05:16specific enough and emotional that they

1:05:17feel something. Um, otherwise, it's

1:05:20lose-lose for both parties.

1:05:22>> Yeah, 100%. And it's that that's the

1:05:25worst that's the worst outcome that you

1:05:28can have is people just feel flat at the

1:05:30end. And that's why we talk about the

1:05:32emotional roller coaster, right? where

1:05:33you offer the highs and the lows because

1:05:35again human psychology wise that's how

1:05:37we live our everyday lives is we go

1:05:39through moments of high stress and low

1:05:41stress and happiness and fear and

1:05:43anxiety and imposter syndrome like

1:05:46>> that's my journey creating a trailer

1:05:48every single [laughter] week is going

1:05:50through that

1:05:50>> like a 20-minute basis

1:05:52>> 20 minutes it's nonstop that's just how

1:05:55humans we are and again that's why

1:05:57horror films

1:05:58>> are so popular it's one of the um least

1:06:03funded in terms of budgets you can make.

1:06:06Like Paranormal Activity is like one of

1:06:07the smallest budgets ever made. One of

1:06:09the most profitable horror films ever

1:06:11made because it's that it's that fear.

1:06:14It's th it's those emotions that we just

1:06:17naturally gravitate to that feeling of

1:06:20uncertainty and that that anger and that

1:06:23fear. But you if you play to them right

1:06:27and then you still offer the outcome and

1:06:28if you still offer them a promise that

1:06:31it will get better and there is a way to

1:06:33get better and there's a way to sort

1:06:35this then the aim is is that they'll

1:06:38watch it and their lives will be better

1:06:40for it. And so I think for us as

1:06:44creators is knowing that, you know, is

1:06:47that sometimes you may have to put

1:06:49people in uncomfortable positions to

1:06:51then get those fruits at the end of it.

1:06:54>> What solidified a lot of what I do and I

1:06:58I still haven't, you know, we haven't

1:06:59mastered packaging, right? The quote

1:07:02that you said about Stephen telling you

1:07:03like what a waste it would be to spend

1:07:06all this time and have nobody watch it.

1:07:08Like that's how I feel. There's amazing

1:07:09episodes that I have on YouTube that

1:07:11have 100 to 200 or 300 views

1:07:14>> and I think they're incredible, but

1:07:16there was something about the packaging

1:07:17or or whatever, but I just have to keep

1:07:20going and and and get better and improve

1:07:21over time.

1:07:22>> Can I quickly ask as well? So, what

1:07:24would you how would you um

1:07:28define whether those episodes were

1:07:31successful or not? What what what is the

1:07:33metric that you would mainly be looking

1:07:35for?

1:07:35>> Oh, successful. Um,

1:07:39well, I'm I'm proud of I would say, you

1:07:41know, 99% of the episodes that I've

1:07:43done. Let's say all of them, but, you

1:07:45know, um, so I'm I'm proud of everything

1:07:48I've done.

1:07:51The term successful is interesting.

1:07:53>> Um,

1:07:56I feel like that they would outperform

1:08:00the average on, let's say, YouTube,

1:08:02right? So, if you know, Michael Smokes

1:08:05episode is at I think almost 60,000

1:08:06views right now. That is a nice

1:08:09congrats.

1:08:10>> Thank you. Yeah, Dan Martell's 320. I

1:08:12had a a real estate couple on that did

1:08:1630,000. I had Courtney Johnson that did

1:08:1885,000. I'm an engineer, so I remember

1:08:21all the all the outliers.

1:08:22>> You're a creator, so you you remember

1:08:24when you when you get that one of 10.

1:08:26>> Exactly. Yeah. One of 10.

1:08:27>> Oh, yeah. That one and 10. Yeah.

1:08:29>> Yeah. And um so I think successful is

1:08:32like outperforming the average. Um but

1:08:35truly it's like

1:08:38the episodes that I put out I do feel

1:08:39like have so much value inherent value

1:08:41whether it's tactical or mindset or

1:08:44whatever that

1:08:46you know I am happy that people are

1:08:47watching them but I know that like I

1:08:50want more to see I want more people to

1:08:52see and engage. Well, it's just because

1:08:54it's like I it's like when you think

1:08:56it's like the packaging wasn't quite

1:08:57right, for example. And I always just

1:08:59think back of a conversation I had with

1:09:02um a really close friend. She's doing

1:09:05amazing at the moment in her career.

1:09:06She's just keeps growing and growing and

1:09:08growing. And we was talking cuz my my

1:09:12perception on metrics have sort of

1:09:16changed now. And so what I look for

1:09:19mainly with like through the trailers

1:09:21and especially on social and now with my

1:09:22own content and part of it was this idea

1:09:27of going viral and getting hundreds and

1:09:30millions of views etc etc. And I was

1:09:32talking to her and she's she's so

1:09:34successful and she went on a um she done

1:09:36a piece of content I think got 2 million

1:09:38views and then she released another reel

1:09:41and I think it got maybe like 10 maybe

1:09:4312K something like that. And I remember

1:09:46seeing that two million and my first

1:09:49thought was insane jealousy. Un

1:09:52unfortunately I was like I wish why

1:09:54can't I get a 2 million real? And then

1:09:57it was obviously pride cuz I love her so

1:09:58much. And then um and then I spoke to

1:10:01her and she said you know what in that 2

1:10:04million real I got zero followers.

1:10:07>> Yeah.

1:10:08>> Zero inbound. that one where it got 10

1:10:11to 12K, I've just signed the biggest

1:10:14contract. And so that's why I've um I

1:10:18was interested in it because in terms of

1:10:20the packages like I wondered whether it

1:10:22was like a views thing for example

1:10:24whether um cuz obviously we always want

1:10:28to reach as far as we can and as wide as

1:10:31we can but you just never know who of

1:10:36those people watch that has changed

1:10:39their life so much from that. Yeah, this

1:10:42is this is true. And specifically on

1:10:44Spotify, too. There's because Spotify

1:10:47numbers are lower than the the like

1:10:50Michael Smokes episode has done, I

1:10:51think, over 5,000 on Spotify, so 10

1:10:54times less than than YouTube, but it's a

1:10:58success. And usually on on Spotify and

1:11:00the audio, it's a much stronger

1:11:02relationship. I spent a lot of time

1:11:04talking to Sam Goddette. He's Dan

1:11:06Martell's content director and his

1:11:09metric is the same thing. Followers from

1:11:12the content, not not views, right?

1:11:15Because the same thing. I think I think

1:11:16they've done one of their most

1:11:18profitable videos, I think, only did

1:11:20like 30,000 views on YouTube, but it,

1:11:22you know, made them the most amount of

1:11:23money because it was so specific to the

1:11:26person that they were talking to.

1:11:27>> And then they're hooked.

1:11:28>> They're like they're like locked in,

1:11:29right?

1:11:30>> Exactly. Yeah. Just like behind the

1:11:31diary, you're talking specifically to

1:11:33entrepreneurs, podcasters, content

1:11:34creators, right? and and then trying to

1:11:36enroll them in.

1:11:37>> But it's difficult cuz I've been there

1:11:38in the shadow of the of DOAC being like,

1:11:40man, we're stuck on 40k views for this

1:11:42episode. We understand that we're

1:11:44optimizing for for depth, not width. And

1:11:46I think it sounds that that's what

1:11:47you're doing for this podcast.

1:11:49>> Yeah. And I knew that going into it,

1:11:51right? I've told people cuz I came from

1:11:52real estate. I told people if I was

1:11:54smart, quoteunquote smart, which is sort

1:11:56of a a limiting belief about what I'm

1:11:59doing, but um if I was smart, I would

1:12:01just do an all real estate podcast and

1:12:03just funnel everybody into my community.

1:12:04and it's just a sales, you know, thing

1:12:07into my into my community. But that's

1:12:08not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to

1:12:09help change the world.

1:12:11>> Right. And then I think to kind of put a

1:12:13finer point on everything that we've

1:12:14been talking about, the clickbait and

1:12:16packaging and human psychology,

1:12:18fundamentally the thing that you said

1:12:21and that cemented everything in my mind

1:12:23is if you truly believe that your

1:12:27product, the stuff that you're putting

1:12:28out is great and it's going to change

1:12:30the world and help people, then it

1:12:33doesn't necessarily matter how you got

1:12:35them there, right? Because you're right,

1:12:38it's window shopping.

1:12:40will they click on you? Because if they

1:12:42don't click, then they're never going to

1:12:43watch. And when people ask me, and I'm

1:12:45just a small guy, but people come up to

1:12:47me and ask me for help on YouTube. And

1:12:49the first thing I tell them is, you got

1:12:51to get your packaging right because if

1:12:52they don't click on it, they're not

1:12:53going to watch.

1:12:54>> And also, it it doesn't die when the

1:12:56video goes out.

1:12:57>> Yeah. Like I'm sure you know this, but I

1:12:59think people think the work's done when

1:13:01the video is live, but really like

1:13:03that's the baby's just been born and you

1:13:05need to be on standby to understand

1:13:08what's happening and can we be changing

1:13:09and can we be AB testing. I think those

1:13:12first like 48 hours of a video are so

1:13:14crucial where you really should be

1:13:15running rigorous and and good

1:13:17experiments on your packaging. For

1:13:20example, a bad experiment might be we're

1:13:22going to run three completely different

1:13:23thumbnails and then from the winner

1:13:25we're going to run completely different

1:13:26three different thumbnails again. No,

1:13:28no, no. Like you need to think of this a

1:13:29bit like a scientist. You're an

1:13:30engineer, so this will make sense. But

1:13:32if you test three different concepts and

1:13:35then from the winner, you test another

1:13:37three different random concepts, you've

1:13:39lost your experimental rigor. Run the

1:13:41three concepts, take the winner, run two

1:13:43comparisons, and then just think of it

1:13:45like a funnel. You're basically

1:13:46narrowing, narrowing, narrowing,

1:13:47narrowing, narrowing down to get to the

1:13:49best version of the best thumbnail that

1:13:51you could possibly get. And all of that

1:13:52has to happen within the first 48 hours,

1:13:55which is painful because you've probably

1:13:56not slept to publish. You've probably

1:13:58had a hell of a week recording all the

1:14:00episodes, but it's truly the most

1:14:01important thing.

1:14:02>> You say spend 70% of your time on the

1:14:05thumbnail and title, and if you're not,

1:14:07then you're then you're doing it wrong,

1:14:08right?

1:14:08>> 100%. And so when you're uh and I don't

1:14:10want to spend too much more time on this

1:14:11because I got a lot of other questions,

1:14:13but um this is more just for me, my own

1:14:15curiosity.

1:14:17How do you run your tests with the

1:14:18thumbnail? So three three thumbnails,

1:14:21same title or different titles?

1:14:22>> I would run the I' I'd beforehand, we

1:14:26have proprietary software, so we would

1:14:28have tested the titles beforehand. So

1:14:29I'm pretty certain by that point that

1:14:30this title for us is the best one. So

1:14:32then we're really focused just on the

1:14:34thumbnails.

1:14:34>> Okay. Um, so we will run the thumbnails

1:14:38with the title. If the video comes out

1:14:40and is really really not working, then

1:14:42we understand that we fundamentally

1:14:44misinterpreted the algorithm here. So

1:14:45then we'll try a different angle. It's

1:14:47basically like we're repackaging the

1:14:48whole thing to say, okay, can we very

1:14:51clearly show to YouTube this is who this

1:14:53video is for. Some of the best videos

1:14:55that have performed well for us just are

1:14:57really easy for YouTube to understand

1:14:59who to show it to. It's got Dragon's

1:15:01Den. It's got Brian Johnson. It's got

1:15:03perfect Ted Dragon's Den. It's got How

1:15:05to Manage Your Time. So, we really think

1:15:07of it as like the algorithm is

1:15:08essentially the man next door who knows

1:15:11nothing about content and you're handing

1:15:12it your video and saying, "Who do you

1:15:14think you should give this to?" And if

1:15:15it if it's really clear, it's going to

1:15:17show it. If it's a bit ambiguous, then

1:15:19we've typically seen that it hasn't

1:15:20performed as well for us. But I'd start

1:15:22with to answer your question, apologies,

1:15:24I would start with thumbnails. [snorts]

1:15:26And then essentially, unless the video

1:15:28flops, just keep iterating. Thumbnail,

1:15:30thumbnail, thumbnail.

1:15:30>> Yeah. Okay.

1:15:31>> And then past the kind of 72-hour

1:15:33window, I'd um start to tweak small

1:15:36things in the title because I would I

1:15:38wouldn't want to change the title too

1:15:40many times in the first 72 hours just in

1:15:42case you end up changing too many

1:15:44variables.

1:15:45>> That's right.

1:15:45>> So that's the thing. You know, do was it

1:15:47then the title that improved the CTR?

1:15:49Was it the thumbnail?

1:15:50>> That's right. Yeah. You were in the

1:15:51scientific process.

1:15:52>> Exactly. Yeah.

1:15:53>> Okay. I'm curious about a couple of the

1:15:54the big moments that happened in the

1:15:56last few years. Um, and yeah, which ones

1:16:01came to Well, you both just kind of

1:16:02side. Which ones came to mind for you?

1:16:03>> I'm thinking 10 million, you know, for

1:16:06the whole team. For you guys, that was

1:16:08when DACA hit 10 million. What did you

1:16:09have in mind?

1:16:10>> I want to hear

1:16:11>> there was two for me really. one is 10

1:16:15million because

1:16:17that was

1:16:20that I think that was the first time

1:16:22really when realize just [ __ ] this is

1:16:29massive to the and the reason why I

1:16:31realized it was massive was because I

1:16:32actually messed up on on the day when um

1:16:36and annoyingly I think it's in behind

1:16:39the diary where um

1:16:41>> you put that there

1:16:42>> to For context, I wasn't very

1:16:45academically gifted as a child. And um I

1:16:49think we was on like

1:16:5119 like 99

1:16:55999,900

1:16:59or something. And I was like, we're one

1:17:01[ __ ] we're one away. We're one away cuz

1:17:03I saw this number and it was massive. I

1:17:04was like, we're just one away. And Grace

1:17:06Andrews just turned to me and said, no,

1:17:08we're 900 away. [laughter] I was like,

1:17:11[ __ ] But then it it happened so quick

1:17:13and like for me that just reminded me of

1:17:15just just how big that number was that I

1:17:18thought was one away and we weren't. We

1:17:21were still 900 or so away and yet 2

1:17:25minutes later we then hit it and it's

1:17:27just like

1:17:29how how that's how like how does that

1:17:33many people subscribe in that moment of

1:17:35time? And so I think that was just such

1:17:37a big one because that day in

1:17:40particular, we were so busy. Any

1:17:44anything like that where we're preparing

1:17:46for some sort of celebration, my first

1:17:48thought is like, I've got a trailer to

1:17:50make. How what am I what am I going to

1:17:53sacrifice to go to this where I the

1:17:56where I know the only thing I cannot

1:17:58sacrifice is the trailer. And so you

1:18:00wake I think I woke up that day at like

1:18:034:00 am started 4 am doing all this

1:18:05doing it all just working work working

1:18:08till the very last moment then we went

1:18:10out luckily luckily our team for some

1:18:13weird reason likes eating dinner at like

1:18:15[ __ ] 11 p.m. So, I had I had some

1:18:18extra time, but it was I think that was

1:18:20that sort of sums up what it's like,

1:18:22which is it's just non-stop. I'd go go

1:18:24go. I never really think about or

1:18:27reflect about what's happened. And then

1:18:29when we hit that, that was a big moment

1:18:32for me. And then, weirdly, the second

1:18:35big moment was when Grace Andrews left.

1:18:39And I don't I have no idea why at the

1:18:44time, you know, it was, you know, when

1:18:47when I got told, all I felt at the time

1:18:49was just pure happiness for her because

1:18:51I was like, she is about to like lift

1:18:55off. And she has and she's amazing. And

1:18:57like one of the best things I can say is

1:18:59just how proud I am of her and everyone

1:19:02else who's just sort of, you know, left

1:19:06the nest and just gone on to do their

1:19:08own thing. And so that entire time I was

1:19:11just like, "Oh, I'm so happy for you.

1:19:12I'm so happy for you. It's just

1:19:13amazing." And then we done like a little

1:19:15bit of a leaving thing where we all had

1:19:17to do a speech and there was a few

1:19:18people there was like, "I don't want to

1:19:19say anything cuz I might get emotional."

1:19:21I was just there. I was like, "I mean,

1:19:22I'll say something." It's like, "It's

1:19:23fine. I'm happy for her."

1:19:24>> Yeah.

1:19:24>> And then I started talking and then I

1:19:27just burst into tears crying and I

1:19:32didn't understand why cuz I was just so

1:19:35happy. And I think I just realized that

1:19:38um

1:19:40I'd never took the time to take a step

1:19:42back and realize who I was building this

1:19:45with. And the people who I've met on

1:19:49this journey is

1:19:52the best thing that's ever happened to

1:19:54me. It's it's crazy. It's like I I get

1:19:56asked I've been asked quite a few times

1:19:58now. It's like when you look back on

1:19:59like the last 4 and 1/2 years,

1:20:02what is the thing that you're most proud

1:20:05of or what is the thing that like fills

1:20:08you up with so much joy? And what I find

1:20:11really interesting is that that question

1:20:14is usually then assumed with the answer

1:20:17of building a style of trailer that

1:20:21wasn't done in that industry. You know,

1:20:23you creating this idea of a leg I hate

1:20:26it so much, but it's like this idea.

1:20:27>> You can give yourself credit. you can

1:20:28give yourself.

1:20:28>> I don't like giving myself credit on

1:20:29this, but it's like creating like this

1:20:31legacy, you know, this this idea of like

1:20:34hundreds of people copying the the like

1:20:37the work you do and and do like

1:20:42that was obviously never the goal and

1:20:43that's that doesn't really happen to

1:20:45people like me and so that's what people

1:20:46just assume the last four and a half

1:20:49years is what I look back on that with

1:20:51most joy but the reality of it is it's

1:20:54not that. If anything, that's just added

1:20:56more imposter syndrome. That's added

1:20:58more anxiety. That's added more

1:21:00pressure. It's it's actually made my

1:21:03life even harder because now it's like,

1:21:06okay, people are leaning on me here and

1:21:08I've got to teach. I've got to give

1:21:09ideas and I want to help people and I'm

1:21:11selftaught. I'm I'm still figuring this

1:21:14[ __ ] out for myself. But the thing that

1:21:17I look back on that I that I'm so happy

1:21:21about is the fact that I've met a

1:21:24particular group of people who

1:21:27bonded through one of the craziest

1:21:30journeys that I think anyone could go

1:21:32through in their career. worked so hard

1:21:35together, who cared so much for each

1:21:38other, that stepped in to build sets in

1:21:42New York in like record time and to help

1:21:44me when I went off on holiday and picked

1:21:46me up when I was at my lowest days and

1:21:49offered me a hug all the time. There's

1:21:51times where like you're in tears and

1:21:52they're hugging you and um I now have

1:21:55the honor of seeing those people become

1:21:58fathers for the first time, getting

1:22:00engaged and getting married or going off

1:22:02and doing the most amazing career

1:22:06trajectory that they'll ever have and

1:22:08training pe training someone to become

1:22:11the best editor I've ever seen. That for

1:22:14me is the thing that I look back on that

1:22:18I'm so grateful for the most. And that

1:22:21really hit for me when Grace Andrews

1:22:24left and I was blobbing my way through a

1:22:27speech because it it was a reminder that

1:22:31through throughout all of this, it's the

1:22:33people that I've met which have that's

1:22:35just changed my life.

1:22:37>> It's always the people. Everything we do

1:22:39is about the people. If we're trying to

1:22:40build anything, it's with the people.

1:22:43like the achievements, the accolades.

1:22:46You need a goal, a purpose, a vehicle to

1:22:48to create something, but you need the

1:22:51people and the right people and the

1:22:52championship team, and that's the most

1:22:54fun.

1:22:55>> It's that quote that's um go fast alone,

1:22:57but go far together.

1:22:58>> Yeah,

1:22:58>> we that's 99% of the success at DOA is

1:23:02from that proverb that yeah, we do

1:23:05things quickly, but it's so much funner

1:23:07and more possible with with a huge team.

1:23:09>> You guys are going fast and far.

1:23:11[laughter]

1:23:12>> Yeah.

1:23:12You guys are going fast and far. So,

1:23:15you're you're one of the rare breeds

1:23:16that do that.

1:23:17>> And I'm massively unfit. So, I'm really

1:23:19I'm panting. I'm [laughter] panting the

1:23:21entire way.

1:23:22>> Yeah. Yeah. Was there a moment for you,

1:23:24Will, that really stuck out as like one

1:23:27of the pillars of your time at

1:23:29>> so far? Yeah. 100%. We It's It's not

1:23:33what you think because by all accounts,

1:23:39this should be like the moment where you

1:23:42celebrate. But I remember remember the

1:23:45old worship street office. We just hit

1:23:48100,000 subscribers on Behind the Diary.

1:23:50Now, at that point, I flash back to

1:23:53being 14 years old when the YouTube logo

1:23:56was a TV and I used to see these plaques

1:24:00and I'd be like, "Man, these things must

1:24:03get shipped in from space cuz they were

1:24:04premium. Like, I' I'd love to get one of

1:24:06those one day." And as we hit 100,000

1:24:09subs on BTD, Jack tapped me on the

1:24:11shoulder and he opened this box and he

1:24:13said, "This is for you." And there I was

1:24:16finally after like a year and a half of

1:24:19like 16, 17, 18 hour days opening this

1:24:23plaque. And I remember feeling

1:24:25absolutely nothing.

1:24:28Like absolutely nothing. And it was so

1:24:31confusing because I'm a creative, which

1:24:34means my work is an extension of myself.

1:24:35So so much of my selfworth comes from

1:24:37putting it into my work. And then at

1:24:39this pivotal moment in my career where

1:24:40I've achieved the thing that I've chased

1:24:42for so long, there was no emotion. And I

1:24:44sat with it and I sat with it and I sat

1:24:46with it for such a long time and I

1:24:47couldn't figure it out. Because surely

1:24:49if this is the point, if this is the

1:24:51podium and you're not feeling anything,

1:24:53then why are you doing it? And

1:24:55eventually I think I've started to

1:24:56conclude that the process really for me

1:24:59is the point. And having this plaque in

1:25:02my hands, this 100k plaque, whilst it

1:25:04was a drop in the ocean for what I hope

1:25:05the channel's going to do, it made me

1:25:07realize that the question you should ask

1:25:09yourself as a creative is if I knew this

1:25:11was going to fail, would I still do it?

1:25:15If I knew that the podium was never

1:25:18going to arrive, that the subscriber

1:25:20milestone was never going to get here,

1:25:21that I was never going to sign that

1:25:22deal, would I still choose this process

1:25:24every single day? And I realized in that

1:25:26moment I would because back to those

1:25:28first principles I mentioned at the

1:25:30start, I'm out of my depth and with

1:25:31people I enjoy working with and it's

1:25:33extremely extremely hard. So for me I

1:25:36realized holding this plaque I was like

1:25:37oh it was actually never about this. Um

1:25:41that really stuck with me as something

1:25:43that I think I'll carry forward. Uh it's

1:25:45why I struggle to like celebrate

1:25:46accolades. Um because I the celebration

1:25:50is like in the dayto-day and it's it's

1:25:53maybe a bit of a cliche but I'm I'm just

1:25:55so romantic about like the process um as

1:25:58a creative.

1:25:58>> Yeah. The entrepreneur's dilemma really.

1:26:00It's one of the great hallmarks of a

1:26:02[laughter] of an entrepreneur is

1:26:04>> I've seen this in Steve as well. We were

1:26:05in Sydney. It was midnight and we we

1:26:10were filming uh some some pickups for

1:26:12Behind the Diary. He'd been working all

1:26:14day and meanwhile in the UK office, you

1:26:17guys were having a party. We were there

1:26:18working, but these guys had set up a

1:26:20massive party in the office. The brand

1:26:23new business was launching. Everyone was

1:26:24on the Zoom call. We were like, "This is

1:26:26it. We're starting the business."

1:26:27Obviously, Steve was there like with the

1:26:29team celebrating. And then afterwards,

1:26:31he shuts the laptop and he's like, "All

1:26:32right, should we film?" And I'm like,

1:26:33"How you feeling?" He's like,

1:26:37>> "Let's let's film."

1:26:38>> Yeah. Like I think one thing that he

1:26:41does really well is he understands that

1:26:43the process is the hard part and he he

1:26:46tries to just stay in the middle

1:26:47throughout all these things because he

1:26:49said to me he was like okay the work

1:26:50starts now like yes we've launched this

1:26:52business but the work starts now

1:26:54>> um and I've observed that in in him and

1:26:56I'm imagine so many other entrepreneurs

1:26:58are like that where they just sit in

1:26:59this middle ground.

1:27:00>> There's a couple things. It's like if

1:27:02you go back to your first principles

1:27:04that you said

1:27:06of detaching yourself from your results

1:27:08essentially and choosing in whether

1:27:10you're going to get it or not, it almost

1:27:12makes it inevitable that you will,

1:27:15right? It's it's almost this like

1:27:16paradox of if you follow those

1:27:18principles,

1:27:20it's inevitable that you will attain

1:27:22your goal or some version of it, right?

1:27:24So, yes, you can detach yourself from

1:27:26your results, but you're probably going

1:27:28to get there. But because it is the

1:27:31journey once you hit the milestone, it's

1:27:34just the beginning. Because in

1:27:36entrepreneurship and building a business

1:27:37and anything any creative pursuit, it is

1:27:41always just the beginning, right?

1:27:42Because that's what we're doing is we're

1:27:43growth beings and we create and we

1:27:45continue to create. So I love that.

1:27:48Someone else, this is the this is the

1:27:50moment that I was thinking about, but

1:27:52someone else that I think also has a

1:27:53hard time celebrating is Mr. Beast. And

1:27:56the interview that Stephen did with Mr.

1:27:59Beast felt felt big. It felt important.

1:28:02I remember watching that episode and

1:28:04watching the Behind the Diary also and

1:28:05just feeling like something happened

1:28:07here. This was a milestone and the way

1:28:10that it all happened. And so you were

1:28:12there right for the whole thing. What

1:28:13was that experience like with Mr. Beast?

1:28:16>> The thing that people don't realize

1:28:18about that episode is the 72 hours,

1:28:21maybe even two years leading up to it.

1:28:23So, this was I can't take any credit for

1:28:25this, but the guest booking team,

1:28:26Jamaima Erith, Cosy Lewis, who put this

1:28:29whole thing together with Mr. Beast, was

1:28:31nothing short of a marathon. Tracking

1:28:34Mr. Beast down and getting him in a

1:28:36podcast studio is probably one of the

1:28:38most difficult things I've ever seen a

1:28:39team do. And in true fashion, on that

1:28:42day, I think it went from an 11:00 a.m.

1:28:45recording to a 400 p.m. recording to an

1:28:478:00 p.m. recording to the next day. And

1:28:49then at 3:00 a.m. in the morning, Jimmy

1:28:51walks into the studio with Steve to

1:28:53record the episode. And one of the most

1:28:56amazing things uh that I saw in that

1:28:58moment is just this mentality of a team

1:29:01of like no matter what, there's no

1:29:04huffing and puffing. There's no anyone

1:29:06getting tired or falling short. The

1:29:08whole team just doing their thing,

1:29:09passing the baton on to Steve, who

1:29:11passes it on to Jimmy, and the episode

1:29:13gets recorded. It felt like a really

1:29:14special moment. Um, and I think it's

1:29:16because it was a side to him that we

1:29:18hadn't seen before of Jimmy and like

1:29:20we've seen all of the success and we've

1:29:22seen everything. But I felt watching

1:29:24that that I was like, I want to

1:29:25understand truly what it takes. And it

1:29:28also wasn't a side of Jimmy that I think

1:29:30people were ready to hear. He was like,

1:29:32"Yeah, it's really hard.

1:29:34It's it's really really hard." And I

1:29:36think that's why it struck a chord with

1:29:37people because he wasn't he was he was

1:29:40in the arena saying like, "Yeah, this is

1:29:43impossible." And for that reason, I love

1:29:45that episode.

1:29:46>> Yeah. And I think a lot of it had to do

1:29:48with your work. The I mean, the hook or

1:29:52moment of value might have been him

1:29:54saying, you know, Stephen asking the

1:29:56question, are you happy?

1:29:57>> And that pause, right? So I

1:29:59>> you can remember it.

1:30:00>> I can remember it.

1:30:01>> Goosebumps.

1:30:02>> So it also sort of going back to this

1:30:04idea of like the Dayton killing the

1:30:06guest work. We wanted to turn him around

1:30:08quickly partly because we were all so

1:30:11excited about it. So we didn't quite

1:30:12have the data available to us. And if

1:30:16you look at like his most watched

1:30:17videos, etc., etc. When when you have an

1:30:20expert on, it makes the process so much

1:30:23easier because you're like, "Okay, this

1:30:24expert got x amount of views talking

1:30:27about this topic and then this topic,

1:30:28etc. Mr. Beast Smoke's videos are his

1:30:31videos, right?" And so you've not really

1:30:34got much to go on. And so for me when

1:30:37when I listened to it, I

1:30:40um it was it it was that side of him

1:30:44that we'd never seen before. And I think

1:30:45that's I I knew in my gut that's

1:30:48probably what Steve would want. And I

1:30:51think that's what that's what the

1:30:52audience would want. That's what they

1:30:53would they would gravitate to hear

1:30:55because I think a lot of people just

1:30:58assumed at that point that Mr. beast was

1:31:01just just growing and growing having fun

1:31:03creating like these really fun videos

1:31:05doing all this and then I think like

1:31:06it's the opening line or something like

1:31:09if you knew what my life was really like

1:31:10you wouldn't want it and so for me it

1:31:14was how do we get that human side to him

1:31:18ASAP

1:31:20and essentially what I had to do is

1:31:23rework a narrative to to almost like go

1:31:26to the future and then go back in time

1:31:28and so then you there's little narrative

1:31:30ative structures that you can do like

1:31:31bridges and bridges and fillers and all

1:31:33of that thing to make it work so there's

1:31:35still that cohesive narrative. But yeah,

1:31:38that was that for me that was what I

1:31:39felt like the people needed to hear at

1:31:41that moment was was this unbelievably

1:31:44successful person talking about how hard

1:31:46it is and and also elevating that to the

1:31:51extent of making people want to know the

1:31:52answer. And so that's why there is a

1:31:55little bit of movie magic in there where

1:31:57I cheekily prolonged the response a

1:32:01little bit longer. I put putting a

1:32:04little bit of movie magic in there.

1:32:05Every single trailer has the movie magic

1:32:07because for us it was a huge moment. So

1:32:11how can I make it a huge moment for the

1:32:12audience? And so adding that extra I

1:32:15think it was like I think it was an

1:32:16extra second I sort of extended it by

1:32:18for that whole moment um that I found

1:32:21was enough to make people think oh he's

1:32:23really thinking about this and then if

1:32:25you actually watch the episode he

1:32:28replies pretty

1:32:29>> pretty quick

1:32:29>> pretty quick [laughter]

1:32:30>> pretty quick and so for me that's that's

1:32:34not good enough that's not that's not

1:32:35going to make people come in I was like

1:32:37come on come on Jimmy [snorts] so yeah

1:32:39so again using in that movie magic

1:32:42because it's like ultimately that's what

1:32:44people want to know and that's why I

1:32:45want to tie tease these people in to do

1:32:47and um but also it's again adding that

1:32:53those credentials behind him. So we go

1:32:55into the intro card straight after and

1:32:57we sort of say how like the career that

1:33:00he's had at such a young age and how

1:33:01he's building all of these multiple

1:33:03different companies because again we

1:33:04want to sell him to people who have

1:33:06never heard of Mr. Beast before. And so

1:33:08then it goes back to the usual job and

1:33:12it's a huge milestone, but the one thing

1:33:14the whole team has to remember is like

1:33:16this is the exact same as every other

1:33:19DOA episode. We treat it the exact same.

1:33:22No one gets special treatment and it's a

1:33:24case of we need to sell this person as

1:33:27if no one's heard of him.

1:33:29>> Yeah. Cuz I think the first time I heard

1:33:31of Mr. piece was when he he probably

1:33:34reached maybe 75 or 100 million on

1:33:36YouTube. And so 100 million people have

1:33:39have subscribed to his YouTube channel.

1:33:40That was like the first time I'd heard

1:33:41of him and that was maybe four or five

1:33:43years ago. Um and so that's like really

1:33:46interesting to think about. 100 million

1:33:47people know about a person and it's the

1:33:48first time I and a lot of other people

1:33:51had heard of him.

1:33:52>> I use him as an example all the time. Uh

1:33:54I was still saying people like who

1:33:56because if they if they're not in the

1:33:57world of YouTube, they're not like

1:33:59especially with like with older

1:34:01generations who don't use YouTube. Yeah.

1:34:03>> They won't know who he is. So it's like

1:34:05so that's why it's um for us it was such

1:34:08a big moment but it was very much a

1:34:12going back to those principles of like

1:34:14what will said earlier and what's sort

1:34:15of part of this checklist that I've got

1:34:18for the trailers which is do not assume

1:34:21because it's big for us it's going to be

1:34:22big for everyone else. So that's why we

1:34:24need to put in those elements to create

1:34:26the suspense to create uh the

1:34:28credentials to sell him as if no one's

1:34:31heard of him before.

1:34:32>> I love that. And so what are some other

1:34:34Well, there was the Bnee Brown uh

1:34:37teaser, right, that I think you did some

1:34:40testing on that came out because I'm

1:34:42really interested in the Yeah. in the in

1:34:44the testing element that you guys do

1:34:46around the trailers and the packaging

1:34:49and what happened with the Bnee Brown

1:34:51trailer. I think it was starting on a

1:34:54moment of value when

1:34:59or was it starting on

1:35:01>> I think it was starting on a moment of

1:35:02value because that was your gut was to

1:35:04do that

1:35:05>> I think so yeah and there was there was

1:35:08a few things pulling us in where Steve

1:35:09was saying some really nice words and

1:35:11like who she is etc etc and so we put

1:35:14that at the front uh to create that

1:35:16intrigue but then we thought will people

1:35:17care enough and then we thought oh it's

1:35:19Bnee Brown do we start with her straight

1:35:20away and then it was like Okay, but what

1:35:22if people don't know who Bnee Brown is?

1:35:23So, so shall we start with A Moment of

1:35:25Value because that's what she's amazing

1:35:26with. And it's sort of like the story

1:35:28with most trailers now, which is when we

1:35:32get the capacity to do it is to test

1:35:34multiple hooks because again, it's just

1:35:36not assuming that we know the answer.

1:35:38And so that's a great example of also

1:35:42Kevin Hart is an amazing example of

1:35:44someone where usually you would start

1:35:47with a moment of his life or a story or

1:35:49anything like that but we actually

1:35:51started with Kevin Hart with a moment of

1:35:52value and it was actually a business

1:35:55focused value because the guy is also an

1:35:59entrepreneur and so a it establishes a

1:36:01side to him that we've not seen before

1:36:04and b for those who don't know him who

1:36:06have never heard of him and they're

1:36:08coming and they're clicking straight

1:36:09away. They're getting value straight

1:36:11away, which is be the dummy in the room.

1:36:13Always ask the questions. And so it's

1:36:15actionable advice that they can take.

1:36:17And so you're in in essence then you're

1:36:19not taking advice from Kevin Hart.

1:36:21You're just taking advice from a

1:36:22successful entrepreneur. And so when we

1:36:25tested that out, we found out that that

1:36:27worked. And one of the one of the

1:36:30biggest failings that I learned was that

1:36:32people actually do not care about the um

1:36:37the career of a certain person or what

1:36:39it's like to live in that career. And I

1:36:41think a lot of people assume that you

1:36:43would people always like oh we want to

1:36:45get in the mind of Kevin Hart of like ah

1:36:48how do you manage fame how do you do all

1:36:50of this sort of thing and the reality is

1:36:52we found it didn't resonate with a lot

1:36:54of people and the answer for that when

1:36:57we come to the conclusion was because no

1:37:00one's lived that life so they can't

1:37:01relate to that life so they don't really

1:37:05and again there's part of us with this

1:37:07negativity bias where it's like oh poor

1:37:09you or you're struggling with all that

1:37:12amount of money and you're being so

1:37:13successful looking. And so we found

1:37:15there's all of those elements that's

1:37:16going on like subconsciously with us is

1:37:19why we're failing to connect with that

1:37:21person in that moment. Whereas

1:37:23traditionally if you spoke to someone

1:37:25that's what they would want to be I

1:37:26wonder what he's like behind the scen. I

1:37:28wonder what it's really like to become

1:37:29famous etc etc. Um, and so that's again

1:37:33through testing, through those hooks

1:37:35that we've done. And we learned that by

1:37:37giving those people the moment of value

1:37:39and allowing Kevin Hart. We've done the

1:37:41exact same with Matthew McConna, moment

1:37:43of value at the start about the

1:37:44parachute, pulling the parachute. And

1:37:46it's like some people pull the parachute

1:37:47too quick. And what I loved about it is

1:37:50that you we're getting life advice or

1:37:53career advice from Hollywood actors. And

1:37:57it's like it's this crazy parallel that

1:38:00I think now that DOA has with these

1:38:02people, which is not only do we get

1:38:04those exclusives from them, but we we're

1:38:07also just getting these master classes

1:38:09from people who you would never assume

1:38:11you could ever get a masterass from. So

1:38:13again, it adds this exclusivity to it.

1:38:16And so a lot of that just came from

1:38:18multiple testing.

1:38:20>> All right. What's the future? We've got

1:38:23AI. We've got the rise. Yeah. We've got

1:38:26AI, we've got the rise of, you know,

1:38:29less polished content, right? This

1:38:31thought crossed my mind about Diver CEO.

1:38:35Is it creating a moat, you know, or is

1:38:37it um going to be a liability being

1:38:41exactly what it is, right? And obviously

1:38:43you guys are incredibly smart. Steven's

1:38:44built a personal brand, what valued over

1:38:47$450 million. I forget the exact number

1:38:49but um one of the most successful

1:38:51personal brands based on everything that

1:38:53you guys have just been talking about

1:38:54everything you've done over the past

1:38:55however many years and now we're seeing

1:38:58a shift in content we're seeing the rise

1:38:59of AI like what is the future and what

1:39:01does it look like for a diary CEO and

1:39:04behind the diary

1:39:05>> okay to understand this let's start by

1:39:08understanding the different type of

1:39:10views that exist today we were in New

1:39:14York I remember and Colin and Samir were

1:39:16talking about the different types of

1:39:18views. They just done Coffee with

1:39:20Creators, which was this amazing New

1:39:22York event, and you ask yourself, why on

1:39:24earth when they have such a mass

1:39:25distribution platform, were they so

1:39:27obsessed with bringing a 100 creators to

1:39:29one space in New York? And they

1:39:31explained it as having regrettable

1:39:33views, forgettable views, and memorable

1:39:35views. I think understanding those three

1:39:38types of views that exist on the

1:39:39platform today help you understand where

1:39:42it's going. We all know what regrettable

1:39:44views look like. You probably don't tell

1:39:45people you doom scroll, but we all know

1:39:47you do. Memorable views is that piece of

1:39:49content um that you have to tell someone

1:39:53about a dinner. And regrettable views is

1:39:56the doom scrolling at 4:00 a.m. Now, I

1:39:59think with

1:40:01AI making content so easy to produce,

1:40:04it's going to reduce the barrier to

1:40:06entry. So, there's going to be more

1:40:07content creators. As a result, I think

1:40:09the thing that's going to win is going

1:40:10to be taste. people who have exceptional

1:40:13taste, who can create something that

1:40:15feels like really, really, really you

1:40:16haven't done that before. So, how do you

1:40:18do that? If you're a content creator

1:40:20today, I think you need to start being

1:40:21multi-disiplinary in the way you consume

1:40:24content. Not just scrolling, but looking

1:40:26at theater, looking at dance, looking at

1:40:27music and cinema, opening your like

1:40:31scope of knowledge as to what makes

1:40:33really good creative work and letting

1:40:34that inform your taste. I think we're

1:40:36going to see a rise in community events

1:40:38massively. people trying to take their

1:40:40audiences offline into their own

1:40:42databases to begin uh connecting them

1:40:45with on a very different level. Um

1:40:47that's my two cents. Um and I actually I

1:40:49also think on YouTube we're going to see

1:40:51this flip away from production into more

1:40:55BTS style content. I think we've seen a

1:40:57trend where all the content has been guy

1:41:00behind a desk telling you how to make

1:41:0210K a month and it's now going to be

1:41:0416-year-old in their basement on week

1:41:06four of their journey to a billion

1:41:08dollar startup unicorn and you followed

1:41:10them the whole way. I think this

1:41:11episodic content of people in the

1:41:13process um is what is going to be on the

1:41:16rise. It's what we're seeing. Um but I

1:41:19think you follow that journey and then

1:41:20you take them into a community and then

1:41:21you take them offline off these massive

1:41:23platforms. That's where I think if I was

1:41:26a creator today, that's what I've been

1:41:27trying to do.

1:41:28>> Yeah. I've just seen the need for

1:41:29connection like even just, you know, in

1:41:31my in my podcast and my content in my

1:41:33audience, people with the massive need

1:41:36for connection and guidance and

1:41:37mentorship and leadership. Um, and then

1:41:40I've been thinking a lot about formats,

1:41:42right? You have subway takes with uh

1:41:44Kareem. Uh, you've got I forget her

1:41:47name, but she got walked around New York

1:41:49with Gary Vee. Like that's a podcast

1:41:51now. And like anything is technically a

1:41:53podcast, right? If you're just talking

1:41:54to someone in whatever format. And so

1:41:57been thinking a lot about that, the

1:41:58behind the scenes, um, and wanting to

1:41:59connect with people more. Uh, not just

1:42:01as a way to get more views, but

1:42:03literally to connect with more people.

1:42:04So I love that. Thank you.

1:42:06>> Yeah. And I think it's I mean, the way

1:42:09the algorithm is going, just to uh, jump

1:42:11on that as well, like some of the most

1:42:13successful reals that you're seeing on

1:42:15Instagram, for example, is here's day

1:42:17one of me building this mini home.

1:42:19Here's day two of building it. And now

1:42:20you're seeing the growth of that, which

1:42:23is for every amount of likes I get, I've

1:42:26got a tiny shovel and I'm digging a

1:42:27hole, for example. I'm seeing loads of

1:42:29that sort of thing. So, when it comes to

1:42:31especially with AI, I'm I very much

1:42:34believe that no one obviously knows

1:42:36where it's going to go and we don't

1:42:38obviously know how long it's going to

1:42:39take to get there. We very much use AI

1:42:41in every single trailer that we do now.

1:42:43And I ve I very much focus on this idea

1:42:45of intentional AI. Um, I think like with

1:42:49anything that's ever come about, the

1:42:53second something becomes popular, people

1:42:55jump on it and they just use it for

1:42:56whatever needs possible that they're

1:42:58doing just to ether get views or clicks

1:43:00or whatever it may be. And so this idea

1:43:02of intentional AI, purposely using it as

1:43:05your best friend to enhance your work is

1:43:08an incredible way to go.

1:43:10My worry is

1:43:15what we've allowed ourselves to do,

1:43:17which is amazing, is to give everyone

1:43:20the opportunity to create content, to

1:43:23get stuff out there, to get their voice

1:43:26out there, and that's amazing. The way

1:43:29the algorithms are shifting now is like

1:43:31it doesn't matter how many followers you

1:43:33have anymore. It's down to that video

1:43:35that you produce, that you create. And

1:43:38so the algorithm is now just it's sort

1:43:40of switching to be like it's it's all

1:43:42about that. It's we're trying to play it

1:43:43to as to the people who are specifically

1:43:46liking that style of content, right? So

1:43:47it's allowing people to

1:43:50it's allowing more people to to do that.

1:43:53My worry is more about this comfort

1:43:57crisis easy way of life mentality that

1:44:02we have now. And what that what I've

1:44:07seen as someone who gets so many

1:44:09messages from editors

1:44:11asking me to review their work is a lot

1:44:14of people doing the exact same thing

1:44:17time and time again because they've seen

1:44:19someone to do it. And so my biggest

1:44:21worry is honestly is is whether we end

1:44:24up in a place where we start seeing a a

1:44:27lack of creativity and pushing the

1:44:31boundaries and coming up with something

1:44:33new and think because the pressure now

1:44:35especially if you're focusing on vanity

1:44:37metrics for example the pressure now is

1:44:39to get everything perfect every single

1:44:42time and you cannot afford to take those

1:44:46risks and so the best way to do that is

1:44:48to copy the things that have been done

1:44:50before down to a tea. And you're already

1:44:54sort of seeing that is all that

1:44:56naturally leads to is fatigue, right?

1:44:58And so

1:45:00where where my worry is and what my what

1:45:02my hope would be is that there are still

1:45:05creators out there like Will just said

1:45:08there who are just drawing in so much

1:45:10inspiration from so many different areas

1:45:13and they're creating something that's so

1:45:16personal to them that they can then

1:45:18navigate that towards a smaller audience

1:45:22perhaps that will really really get

1:45:24value from that content. And so, I mean,

1:45:27that's what I've started to do with my

1:45:29content on Instagram, for example, is I

1:45:31I don't really care about how many views

1:45:34it gets, for example. All I want to try

1:45:36and do is make sure someone learns

1:45:38something. So, I've done a post the

1:45:40other day about eyelines and the

1:45:42psychology behind eyelines and why I

1:45:44think everyone should have guide guides

1:45:46and match the eyes, right? And it's I

1:45:49know that's not going to go viral

1:45:50[laughter] because it's not it's not

1:45:53interesting to anyone other who wants to

1:45:55make videos, right? But it's the small

1:45:57community that it's building and the

1:45:59messages that I'm getting where they're

1:46:00asking for the guides and speaking to me

1:46:02and asking for that little bit of extra

1:46:04advice. And I think that's the way the

1:46:06sort of algorithm is going is you're

1:46:07sort of going to start creating these

1:46:08tiny communities of people who really

1:46:12want to talk to you and get to know you

1:46:14and like you. And so that's my hope for

1:46:16it. But yeah, my big my big worry is

1:46:18that I just don't want to end up in a

1:46:20world where everyone's copying because

1:46:23they think that's the only way to get

1:46:25success and no one takes a risk anymore.

1:46:28>> Yeah. I feel like if I was a creator

1:46:30today, I'd I'd sacrifice the role of a

1:46:33chief growth officer for someone like a

1:46:35chief nurturing officer, which is like

1:46:38even if I have an audience of a hundred

1:46:39people, I'd want someone in my business

1:46:42or a slot in my calendar where my sole

1:46:44focus is have has every single person

1:46:47who comes across my band been enriched

1:46:49in some way. Has there been some kind of

1:46:51touch point? Have I forced someone to

1:46:53reply in the comments and then sparked

1:46:55another reply? I feel like that is the

1:46:58the depth not width kind of analogy that

1:47:00we should start to approach this AI

1:47:02trend and social growth trend with um

1:47:05making sure that the touch points you

1:47:07have are really really high quality

1:47:09because I think that's what people

1:47:10notice. I think people will notice

1:47:12whether you reply to a DM and comment

1:47:14and then you keep them in their

1:47:16ecosystem. They begin to remember you

1:47:18and as a result feel a part of the

1:47:20community. I don't know. What do you

1:47:21think? That's just a take. It's a a

1:47:23framework that businesses have been

1:47:25doing for years is this idea of the

1:47:27funnel, right? And you start off why you

1:47:28bring and I think people need to start

1:47:30focusing more and more and more on that

1:47:33last part of the funnel because that's

1:47:35where most value is going to come.

1:47:36That's where your dream clients are

1:47:38going to come in. That's where you're

1:47:39going to give most value to people and

1:47:41you're going to be most most useful. And

1:47:43so from from our sense from the trailers

1:47:46for example, we've we have been shifting

1:47:49and people don't people don't always

1:47:52realize the shifts that we've made

1:47:54because again they're 1% that's

1:47:56compounded over time and we have our

1:47:58principles that we always stick to. And

1:47:59so part of that is we used to when you

1:48:04look back at the old hooks we used to

1:48:06create they were maybe around about 10

1:48:07seconds and they their their sole

1:48:10purpose was to try and grab your

1:48:12attention keep you there to create

1:48:13enough intrigue to then go into into the

1:48:15rest of it. Now if you actually look at

1:48:18the hooks we make some of them about 30

1:48:20to 40 seconds and we're offering value

1:48:22in that. We're offering examples in that

1:48:25we're might be going down an emotional

1:48:26route. They're going through different

1:48:28emotions just in that hook. And it's

1:48:30this idea of like we want to respect the

1:48:32audience even more so and be like, you

1:48:35know what, just enjoy this. Enjoy this m

1:48:39if you can get some value. Amazing. And

1:48:42so we've shifted in that sense in a

1:48:45sense that we've prolonged our hooks and

1:48:47making them longer and we've sort of

1:48:48weaved them more into the main body. The

1:48:51checklist that

1:48:53I speak about started off at five. this

1:48:55now at 15 because this idea that we have

1:48:58to adapt to the new times and how

1:49:00algorithms are changing and with AI, you

1:49:02know, um

1:49:04the concept how can we use AI but still

1:49:08protect my team and make sure my team

1:49:10are learning and making sure the team

1:49:11become the best have the best skills

1:49:14available to them whilst they're using

1:49:16AI. And the beauty of it is is uh we

1:49:19released one today that came out which

1:49:22was uh I turned Steve into a 2-year-old

1:49:26version of Steve and I would never have

1:49:29obviously been able to do that preai

1:49:31because we don't have young Steve back

1:49:34then or we don't have the money to bring

1:49:36in a child actor and bring so the fact

1:49:38that AI allowed me to do that is

1:49:41incredible. It was still me doing it,

1:49:43but AI allowed me to do it, but it was

1:49:45intentional because it added so much to

1:49:47the story at the time, and I tried to

1:49:49turn it more into a comedic moment,

1:49:50etc., etc. And so that's where I think

1:49:55for us where the trailers are

1:49:58are adapting to those times and adapting

1:50:01to how things are going to be. And we

1:50:03are trying to even in the trailers build

1:50:05that community. And if anything, we're

1:50:08actually putting in more and more effort

1:50:10to show effort because we want to we

1:50:13want people to see these and be like,

1:50:15"These people really care about what

1:50:16they're doing. Let's hear them out."

1:50:19>> Well, I really care for both of you

1:50:21coming out and speaking uh with me

1:50:24together. I think this has been

1:50:25extremely valuable. I'll be interested

1:50:27to hear uh your thoughts on packaging

1:50:29around this. Uh uh and I could sit here

1:50:31and I'd talk to you for another hour.

1:50:32The sun is going down.

1:50:34>> [laughter]

1:50:35>> The light has shifted in the room. Uh

1:50:37the owners are going to show up here in

1:50:39in 20 minutes. So uh but I just thank

1:50:41both of you so much for coming out here.

1:50:43And as always everybody, I appreciate

1:50:45you. I love you. This has been for your

1:50:46own good. Peace.

The systems behind these conversations — the deal underwriting, the tax strategy, the operators doing it live — are in Escape Velocity.

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